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08-30-2003, 04:16 AM | #1 |
Hoplite Nomad
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What would happen if America practiced Isolationism?
What would happen if America practiced Isolationism?
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
08-30-2003, 04:20 AM | #2 |
Entmoot Attorney-General,
Equilibrating the Scales of Justice, Administrator ♎ Join Date: Jan 2003
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The world would be a bit more dangerous to live in.
As the most powerful nation on earth, both economically and military, it is the US's responsability to not be isolationistic but to make sure that the world becomes a better one.
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08-30-2003, 04:21 AM | #3 |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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The world would fall apart. But hey - I say we try it again for a while - see after America has been baby-sitting for about 60 years if Europe can handle itself better than it did before. We can spend out taxes on ourselves for once.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 08-30-2003 at 04:22 AM. |
08-30-2003, 07:31 AM | #4 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2002
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Europe has managed for centuries without your involvement. It's not the standard war-torn destitute region you think it is you know, I am sure we would get along without you.
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08-30-2003, 11:45 AM | #5 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Lindon
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Western Europe profited a lot from American involvement, but America had also a vested interest in Europe not fall to Communism, that is why it kept such a powerful presence there (and why it supported a few dictatorships there too, not all things were positive). If America had withdrawn from Europe after WWII, it is doubtful if the Cold War would now be a thing from the past. Take the wealth generated by Western Europe (including transatlantic trade) and add, say, 1/3 of it to the USSR, plus the scientific resources of Western Europe, their influence (and perhaps effective control) of many colonies and what you get wouldn’t be a rosy picture.
As for now, could the US afford isolationism? Without projecting force, would the US be able to be so influential in the world’s trade? And if not, would that not influence America negatively?
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**************************************** "None are more hoplessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Reality is just an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein The Caffeine Mantra It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Brazil that the thoughts aquire speed, The hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion... Elvellon Erelion |
08-30-2003, 12:54 PM | #6 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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08-30-2003, 01:14 PM | #7 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Elvellon - I agree - it was in our best interest to protect you from communism. That goes without saying. We instituted the Marshall Plan to rebuild Europe and Japan. But that is over with. You guys have been on your feet for decades, the Soviet Union has been gone for over a decade. I however don't understand what you mean about our military enforcing trade. How does our military enforce trade with Europe or anytone else? Do our tanks come in when Europe increases tarrifs or do our planes bomb your cities when you refuse to take our genetically grown corn? We have a huge trade deficit so we really suck at influencing trade in our favor. South Korea was having anti-American demonstrations - they even elected their leader under the promise that he was going to kick us out. Now that North Korea is testing missiles - they no longer want us to leave. Everyone around the world criticises America for whatever we do - if we don't do something - we get critcised, if we get involved we get criticised. We saved the world from Soviet domination - our job is done. Let Europe deal with the problems of the Middle East - problems they created by their colonialism.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 08-30-2003 at 01:21 PM. |
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08-30-2003, 01:41 PM | #8 | |
im quite stupid
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Cockermouth
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And JD dont have a go at us for having two world wars the second world war was a direct conquence of the first due to our lack of forsight
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Yeah god hes ok but i would rather be judged by a sheep than that idiot |
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08-30-2003, 02:08 PM | #9 | |
High King of Númenórë
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Guess you forgot about WWII....
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen |
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08-30-2003, 02:10 PM | #10 | ||
Elf Lord
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**************************************** "None are more hoplessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Reality is just an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein The Caffeine Mantra It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Brazil that the thoughts aquire speed, The hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion... Elvellon Erelion |
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08-30-2003, 02:15 PM | #11 |
High King of Númenórë
Join Date: Jan 2003
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While I don't think we should become isolationist, I'd like for us to just do it to show the world how dependent they really are on us. I only say this because I am just always sick of the US getting talked trashed about and criticized for everything we do. Like JD said, we are criticized for anything we do. Perfect example look at Liberia, we were criticized for not doing anything and then when we got Charles Taylor out and sent some troops we were criticized for not sending enough troops. I mean come on, I'm sick of that crap. We are always the bad guys, we were even blamed for 9/11 by some.
I say we stick by those countries who have supported us through and through and pull out and stop helping those that have continued to question us or stab us in the back or change tune on us when they need our help. Like I said, I don't want us to be isolationists, but at the same time I want us to be just to prove a point, because let's face it, spite rules
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen |
08-30-2003, 02:55 PM | #12 |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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Dúnedain - that is exactly how I feel. That's why I support the COMPLETE withdrawa of our troops from Germany. of course many towns in Germany will go under - but hey - Schroeder said enough stuff to make us feel unwelcome. We'll go over to the Eastern European countries where we are more appreciated.
Elvellon - you may think that that is when the Middle East Crisis began - but maybe you should read the history of the Middle East. Look at the colonialism that occurred in the Middle East - also America wasn't even directly involved in the Middle East in the 40's. Britain and France in particular are the two countries which divided up the Middle East into the countries they are today. Most of it occurred during WWI - NOT WWII. If you want to read a really good book on the history of the modern Middle East - I would recommend... A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East By the way - is it America's fault that not all countries are stable in democracy and capitalism? We succeeded in many places - Russia is enjoying freedom now as is Eastern Europe as a whole. Japan isn't a shappy success story either. Europe may not want to give us credit for it - but it was our presence and our tax dollars that bankrupted the Soviet Union. When Reagan put more missiles in Germany while there were thousands of demonstrations throughout Europe and people saying that WWIII was inevitable. Well - soon after - the Berlin Wall came down and the Soviet Union dissolved, albeit without a few last death throw kicks. But the Soviet Union is no longer - and most of the credit should go to the US - but Europe refuses to give this credit to us. To them - it was everyone but the US which ended communism in Eastern Europe. I just find the world very ungrateful to the US and as I said before - no matter what we do it's wrong. I don't think we will become isolationists. I do support pulling out of the UN and I do think that if we don't get better support from Europe - I think we should start turning a blind eye to them. The only thing that comes out of Europe and this has been since Reagan - is criticism. Europe wants us on the world stage - but they only want us there on their terms and as they pull the strings. My tax dollars aren't going to do the bidding of Europe. Sween - I'm not having a go at you - I'm just stating facts. It's just because we still hear on the news from Europeans there superior attitude toward us, when history shows us that your handling of world events in the past were far worse. We haven't had a world war since WWII - 60 years ago. Also - I agree - WWII was a result of WWI - but Europe sat on it's hands while Hitler just built up armies. Also- you guys just sold out your neighbors and said "take Czechloslovakia but just don't touch Poland". Well - then when he attacked Poland - it was too late to do anything. Hitler was much bigger - much stronger and no one in Europe had wanted to do anything - other than really Churchill and he lost his position for initially speaking out. it seems as if Europe still hasn't learned from WWII - because they still would rather appease dicators and leaders who threaten world peace than actually want to do something to prevent a bigger mess in the future.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 08-30-2003 at 02:59 PM. |
08-30-2003, 03:44 PM | #13 | |||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Lindon
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What I believe is that you are oversimplifying things. The Middle East situation is not the result of a single early factor but of many, occurring over time, especially those occurring after the WWII. Ultimately, I believe the main responsibles are the main actors themselves. Quote:
This is not a matter of “fault,” JD, but of consequences, regardless of “fault” or laurels. Your speech is mostly wasted, and not to the point. Fact is, many countries seem to be still quite unstable in terms of democracy. Fact is, there is a lot of resentment of how capitalism is being implemented in many countries. This, is not about whose fault this is so, but of existing circumstances, and a what if scenario. So I ask, do you think that, if the US becomes seriously isolationist, many of those countries would remain firmly bound to democracy, or would support free trade? If not, would that not hurt the US economy? Quote:
You seem to forget; “we” didn’t exist then. The idea of a common bound uniting all Europeans may not be recent, but certainly wasn’t given any credit. There wasn’t a “we” then, there were only British, French, Germans, Portuguese, etc. The ocean thing that you seem to attribute such importance didn’t matter. Everyone there or here felt the same; “it isn't us, it isn’t our business.”
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**************************************** "None are more hoplessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Reality is just an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein The Caffeine Mantra It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Brazil that the thoughts aquire speed, The hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion... Elvellon Erelion Last edited by Elvellon : 08-30-2003 at 03:46 PM. |
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08-30-2003, 04:19 PM | #14 | |||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 08-30-2003 at 04:24 PM. |
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08-30-2003, 06:12 PM | #15 | |||
Elf Lord
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2- Yes, our economy would suffer also assuredly, but the tread was not about Europe. If it was I would have talked of it, not about the consequences for the US. 3- I’m saying that the US economy would suffer if the US would become isolationist. Not only because of the Middle East but also because if other economies suffer (like Europe as you well reminded) so will the US economy. After all, we are each other main trade partners. So if you were less hit directly (perhaps, but there are other issues but oil) you would still have fewer partners to trade with. Quote:
Or perhaps it is about a common culture you now can, perhaps, easily identify. But that perception is also recent; at that time it mattered more the local differences than the similitude’s. It is because Germany was a neighbour? That was something that only mattered in how closely you watched the other. In the end, nations acted when they started to fell threatened. The difference is, the European nations acted first because they were near and the danger was felt first. But to act before than they did would mean a common identity, and there wasn’t any. Also, in Europe, as in the US, the memory of WWI was very strong, leading for people to be willing to take greater risks (in delaying war) in the hope of maintaining peace. As for the relation of the US with central and South America I would ask first, what period are you referring? Then or now?
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**************************************** "None are more hoplessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Reality is just an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein The Caffeine Mantra It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Brazil that the thoughts aquire speed, The hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion... Elvellon Erelion |
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08-30-2003, 06:24 PM | #16 |
Lord of the Pants
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,382
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Adapt, and move on.
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08-30-2003, 07:38 PM | #17 | ||||||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 08-30-2003 at 07:45 PM. |
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08-30-2003, 07:59 PM | #18 |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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Actually this question posed in this thread isn't whether America should become isolationist or what would happen to America is we did - it's what would happen to the world if we did.
I personally feel that without us - the world would be a much more dangerous place. I think we have done a lot to protect countries and make the world a safer and better place - even while others whine abour our actions and have our presidents characterized as Hitler (Bush wasn't the first President Europeans had dressed up as Hitler). I think the world would be sorry if we became isolationists or if we pulled out of the UN - even while they ridicule us.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
08-31-2003, 07:53 AM | #19 | ||||||
Elf Lord
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Besides, the US considered since an early time South and Central America as their sphere of interest, thus the reason for your concern. You may remember that no European state then had such a sphere of interest encompassing all of Europe, nor enjoyed such an undisputed military superiority in relation to the others. Quote:
2-No one here was calling Bush of Hitler. If you have an issue about that name-calling, I suggest you bring it to the person(s) who said it, and do not insinuate, as you are doing, that all Europeans are Anti-American bigots.
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**************************************** "None are more hoplessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Reality is just an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein The Caffeine Mantra It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Brazil that the thoughts aquire speed, The hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion... Elvellon Erelion |
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08-31-2003, 08:20 AM | #20 | |
Domesticated Swing Babe
Join Date: May 2002
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Re: What would happen if America practiced Isolationism?
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Black markets (and mafia style activity) would quickly spring up for products desired, but not made within a country. Certain people would agressivly buy up a countries comodities (within a certain product area) and get very rich by having near monopolies within a country. Current comsumption habits would be forced to change, in all countries. There would eventually be more diversity in the world again. Politics could become even shadyier (sp?) with the ties between government and manufacturing/marketing becoming intertwined. Inflation, due mostly to energy prices. Environmentalism would take it hard, as the US scrambled to keep up with energy demands from within the country. But hopefully....Yankee ingenuity would give rise to new energy sources. (and lack of cheap energy would give rise to more conservation) Maybe! I can't remember, why is isolationism so bad?
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Happy Atheist Go Democrats! Last edited by Lizra : 08-31-2003 at 08:22 AM. |
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