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04-28-2003, 09:44 PM | #121 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
Join Date: Dec 2002
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*Shrugs* "Oft evil will/Shall evil mar." That does not make the evil any less so, and that is why Manwe trusted in Iluvatar's plan, to make good out of evil. Perhaps good came out of the Kinslaying, but you cannot tell me (so that I believe it, anyhow), that Feanor's transport to Middle earth, along with his partners-in-crime, could not been done without harm to the Telerii. He did evil, and I believe that, though not originally so, became blackest evil. We have JRRT's saying that Sauron was not originally so. Let the bodies of the Telerii attest to the goodness of Feanor's heart, along with Celebrimbor's body borne on a pole, of Sauron's good will.
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
04-29-2003, 12:07 AM | #122 | |
The Tall
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Formenos
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Quote:
I look at it in the bigger picture. The death of an elf is the death of an elf. Was the killing of elves by Fëanor evil? Yes. Was the killing of elves by Morgoth evil? Yes. If the Ñoldor weren't sundered from the Valar when they reached ME, Morgoth wouldn't have had time to disperse his power as he did, therefore in an alternate War of Wrath, Morgoth would have been more powerful himself and such a battle would have destroyed more of Middle-earth than the original did, causing more deaths, and that includes Teleri too.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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04-29-2003, 12:30 AM | #123 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
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But here you're getting into the question of whether an evil action (killing the Teleri) is made ok if that causes less 'evil' down the road (your assumption of "Morgoth wouldn't have had time to disperse his power as he did, therefore in an alternate War of Wrath, Morgoth would have been more powerful himself and such a battle would have destroyed more of Middle-earth than the original did, causing more deaths, and that includes Teleri too.")
First of all, that IS only an assumption - how do we know that? We can't. Here's another assumption - if the Ñoldor and the Valar had healed the breach that was between them, then together they would have become so powerful that they would have totally whomped Morgoth, causing even less loss of life. I don't think an evil action can become 'good' if the results of that evil action are judged to be good (i.e., less dead elves). An evil action is evil, no matter what. Yes, the killing of elves is evil - but there are worse things than death, IMO - such as the marring of a heart by evil choices. The elves that died doing right seem to spend very little time with Mandos before they are released.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
04-29-2003, 12:41 AM | #124 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
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Really? So Namo is like the keeper of Purgatory?
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
04-29-2003, 10:22 AM | #125 | |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: On the Bay of Belfalas
Posts: 1,125
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Quote:
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
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04-29-2003, 02:32 PM | #126 | |||||
The Tall
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Formenos
Posts: 578
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Quote:
From Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed Quote:
From Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Where is it that my text does not support my statements?
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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04-29-2003, 07:16 PM | #127 | |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: On the Bay of Belfalas
Posts: 1,125
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Quote:
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. Last edited by Attalus : 04-29-2003 at 07:58 PM. |
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04-29-2003, 07:50 PM | #128 | |
Banned
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04-29-2003, 07:54 PM | #129 |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
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From what UT says, the only reason that he wanted a lock of her hair was because it reminded him of the light of the Trees. This was what gave him the idea for the Silmarils. What else could he have possibly created involving her giving him a lock of hair?
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
04-29-2003, 08:11 PM | #130 | |
Banned
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04-29-2003, 08:40 PM | #131 | ||
The Tall
Join Date: Oct 2002
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Newsflash, that isn't in the books. To use the Kinslaying as an excuse is not logical. It's funny how you shift your arguments from Galadriel then Fëanor then back to Galadriel. Of course Fëanor didn't do a great work with the hair of Galadriel because he was denied that. I thought that was obvious, well not to you it seems. You seem to ignore that no good ever came out of her denying her hair. That hate and fear were not overcome by her, in fact you agree with the fact that her denial was a good thing. Such a Melkorian attitude. Fight hate with hate is what Morgoth does not Manwë, and that is in the books with no speacial pleading that goes around. Quote:
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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04-29-2003, 08:55 PM | #132 | |||
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04-29-2003, 09:14 PM | #133 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
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From Unfinished Tales.
Quote:
__________________
"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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04-29-2003, 09:19 PM | #134 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
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Quote:
__________________
"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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04-29-2003, 11:30 PM | #135 | |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: On the Bay of Belfalas
Posts: 1,125
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Quote:
__________________
"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
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04-30-2003, 12:08 AM | #136 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
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And I"ll add my view as a woman on the hair thing - I would certainly not give anything so personal as a lock of hair to someone that I did not care for, and I don't think it is wrong of me in any way whatsoever to think that way.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
04-30-2003, 12:45 AM | #137 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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04-30-2003, 12:48 AM | #138 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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ah-HA! I happened to flip right to it! (doncha love when that happens! )
From HoME 10, Morgoth's Ring, The Later Quenta Silmarillion (II), Laws and Customs among the Eldar, "Of Re-birth and other dooms of those that go to Mandos": Quote:
(For those who don't have HoME books, "feä" roughly corresponds to a persons' spirit or soul; "feär" is plural)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 04-30-2003 at 12:53 AM. |
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04-30-2003, 01:06 AM | #139 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
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Thanks much, Rian.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
04-30-2003, 01:16 AM | #140 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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You're welcome!
There's various other references scattered around, but that was one of the better ones.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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