01-17-2003, 04:44 PM | #221 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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01-17-2003, 05:50 PM | #222 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I'll meet that wagged finger and raise you one ...
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*does a quick count of dictionarys, textbooks, etc. that use the term "strong atheism" - let's see - one, two .... (up to some unknown number, but this unknown number is orders of magnitude less than the number for "atheism"* Nope, I stand by what I posted. We can niggle the strong/weak atheism thing at a later point. restated from RÃ*an's earlier post about the definition of atheism: LFA - a generally accepted definition would be: a person who believes that there is no god. Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 01-17-2003 at 05:54 PM. |
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01-17-2003, 05:59 PM | #223 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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*while re-going thru thread, notices that EG also has a pending question ... whoops!*
*sends EG some clogs, some glue and an affectionate Entmoot kiss (you're one of my first Entmoot friends, EG ), and returns box of kleenex, which did come in handy *
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
01-17-2003, 06:03 PM | #224 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Now BoP and Andúril - please put down those sticks, you two, and apologize!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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01-17-2003, 06:25 PM | #225 |
the Shrike
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Lemme get this straight:
Weak atheism = a lack of belief in said deities. Strong atheism = a belief in the non-existence of said deities. Well, not to start beating a dead horse again, but both of those 'beliefs' or lack thereof, are governed by ideas, or a system of thoughts. So really, I don't get your quibble that weak atheism isn't an ideology. *Sneaks in a quick smack with the stick, while Rian isn't looking.*
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01-17-2003, 06:35 PM | #226 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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MY turn for a definition of omnipotence
Since Andúril has shared his def of omnipotence, which I would characterize as not widely known and/or accepted, I'll take a moment to share a def that is found in The New Unger's Bible Dictionary, which I would describe as a well-known work that may be found in many book stores.
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And the other part of the big picture is - what are you going to do about what you do know about God and the Bible? I suggest that you seriously think about that question. I would even suggest that you pray about it and ask God to help you - what harm is there in that suggestion if God doesn't even exist? No one has to know that you prayed but you. Why not give it a try? (and that goes for the other non-Christians here, too ) (you can PM me and let me know if you are going to try it, and I'll pray extra for you ) However, I'll address the points in your last 2 posts as soon as I can (probably not until Monday, because the weekends are usually busy for me and not a good time for long, involved posts) because I hate to see ideas such as strong/weak omnipotence, which I think are misleading and dangerous, be on a thread unchallenged.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 01-17-2003 at 06:39 PM. |
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01-17-2003, 06:43 PM | #227 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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And I send you a very affectionate and sisterly Entmoot kiss too, Andúril - whether you like it or not . And I pray that it will stick with you for your whole life, and always be a reminder to you that a Christian cared enough about you to spend a great deal of her time discussing these things with you. And that that kind of love comes from God Almighty, because if I didn't have God's love in my heart, I would have been very angry with you by now; instead, I am filled with compassion and concern for you.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
01-17-2003, 06:46 PM | #228 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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you naughty thing, BoP! And here's a kiss for you, too! Mwa! x *other Entmooters flee in terror from RÃ*an's flying kisses*
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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01-18-2003, 04:33 AM | #229 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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As long as they're not judaskisses I think everything will be fine.
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01-18-2003, 09:43 AM | #230 | ||
The Original Corruptor
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Links to examinations of dictionary definitions
http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQ...atheismdef.htm http://www.update.uu.se/~fbendz/athe...finitions.html http://www.objectivethought.com/introa.html http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/intro.html http://www.update.uu.se/~fbendz/philo/atheism.htm http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/7748/42661 I stand confident in my position. Quote:
Last edited by Andúril : 01-18-2003 at 03:38 PM. |
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01-18-2003, 10:52 AM | #231 | |
The Original Corruptor
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Here is an exerpt of an article from a Christian site which I will comment on. Please note that I am not generalizing Christians by taking the info on this site as generally accepted. However, I have personally encountered quite a few sites with similar content, and conversed with many who have had less of a grasp on atheism than the one found here. If one does accept all or parts of this article, then my comments may apply to that person.
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"An atheist is also someone who rejects all religious belief systems." False. Due to the relative nature of belief and non belief, atheism has relative meaning. A Christian is a strong atheist in the sense that he/she believes in the non-existence of all gods less one. Thus for certain people, a qualified atheism is the case. Atheism can also be referred to in an unqualified, universal manner, i.e. "I believe in no gods", or "I believe that no gods exist". Therefore, since Christianity involves atheism it is not true that all atheists reject religious belief systems. "By contrast, theism is the belief that there is a God and that He is knowable." This statement does not take theistic agnosticism into account. Not all theists claim that God is knowable. "I need to mention that most atheists do not consider themselves anti-theists. Most consider themselves as non-theists." Some atheists, including myself, take antitheism to be virtually synonymous with atheism. It is the opposition to theism, thus the opposition to the belief in God or gods, which is active disbelief, a sub-category of weak atheism. Antitheism is not synonymous with strong-atheism. I think the writer is making this mistake here (a mistake I too have made in the past). Last edited by Andúril : 01-18-2003 at 11:05 AM. |
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01-18-2003, 10:58 AM | #232 |
The Original Corruptor
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"Which ever definition you go by, atheism denies God."
According to the links in the previous post regarding dictionary definitions, the distinction is normally made between disbelief and denial of the existence of God, which are referred to as weak and strong atheism respectively. This statement asserts merely strong atheism. "They expressly denounce the Christian God along with any other god." Incorrect. See above. "I call them agnostic because they state they have looked at the evidence and have concluded that there is no God. But, the interesting thing with them is that they say they are open further evidence for God's existence." There is an implied equivocation of "them" here. In the first statement, the writer refers implicitly to strongly atheistic agnostics. In the second statement the writer refers implicitly to weakly atheistic agnostics. "Finally, there is a group of atheists that I call militant atheists." The differences between what the writer calls "millitant" atheists and weak/strong atheists have nothing to do with belief or lack thereof, which is what atheism is concerned with. If we decided to categorise terms on this basis, then we could end up with such irrelevant and absurd concepts as "African-American atheism", "professional atheism", "diaral atheism", etc. I see no more reason to refer to "militant atheism" when examining atheism, than to refer to "militant theism" when examining theism. Last edited by Andúril : 01-18-2003 at 03:43 PM. |
01-18-2003, 11:38 AM | #233 | ||||
The Original Corruptor
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Btw, I wasn't sighing because you still don't understand, it was....er.....it's been a long day..... Anyway, look at a few scenarios: Passively weak atheism I know of a few god-concepts. Do I know all god-concepts? No. Therefore, in relation to those gods which I have not (yet, possibly) conceptualized, I do not have a belief regarding their existence. There is obviously no ideology or belief system behind this weak atheism. Actively weak atheism (1) I know of a god-concept (which we can call "Bob" for now). I lack the belief in Bob's existence without appealing to knowledge, belief, or unwarranted speculation to justify this disbelief. I disbelieve in Bob "just because" or not because of anything. Actively weak atheism (2) I know of Bob, but I see no good reason to think he's real. Why should I think Bob is real if I don't see a good reason to support this belief? Now, since the general meaning of "weak atheism" is the most commonly used definition of "atheism" and the only term that applies to both categories, I feel no need to examine strong atheism. Quote:
Last edited by Andúril : 01-18-2003 at 11:45 AM. |
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01-18-2003, 01:51 PM | #234 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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No, you need have no worries in that regard. And one more: an Entmoot kiss for Lizra - even though she doesn't have any questions pending that I know of, I'm very fond of her, and she and I have a unique bond that not many other people have.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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01-18-2003, 02:00 PM | #235 | ||||||||||
The Original Corruptor
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Nevertheless, I am quite inquisitive about this "point" that I have missed. Let's see what it is, and how relevant it was to that discussion in particular... Quote:
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What does the Chrisitian god's claimed uniqueness have to do with an elaboration of terms, anyway? Irrelevant. Last edited by Andúril : 01-18-2003 at 04:20 PM. |
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01-18-2003, 02:03 PM | #236 | ||
The Original Corruptor
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01-18-2003, 04:55 PM | #237 |
'Sober' Mullet Frosh
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Hmm. I don't know about pointing to the bible to prove Christianity. One can study the bible lots of ways to prove lots of different things. The saying goes "This and this are both the words of God and are correct"
There's a nce Talmudic tale about this point. A group of rabbis are arguing. All the rabbis but one agree on a point of logic. The other stands up disagrees. His opponents are not swayed. The rabbi calls on God to back himself up. The voice of God comes out and says "he's right folks" the other rabbis argue God cannot arbitrarly change law like that-he set it, and in it's in our hands to interpert now. God laughs and cries out "my children have defeated me" The point is that the bible is a tool to be used differently by everyone. If used right it will produce rightness. If used wrongly it will be produce wickedness. Religion exists to explain what is right, but every religion has its own version.
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01-18-2003, 08:17 PM | #238 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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Well thank you for the kiss Rian! I'm a big sucker for obvious displays of affection! Personally, I think your kisses are your strongest "weapon" in the "God" debate. I read this debate and "logic", yet it somehow leaves me cold! As I mentioned earlier, (IMO) nobody really "knows" what they are talking about here, and won't till they die. ( the "afterlife" seems to be a central issue in the whole "God" debate).
I think that people are selfish, and unless they are raised with "faith in God", they won't go seeking it, till there is a need, or reason to. If you need God, you will start looking, and maybe find "him". (I think leif erickson mentioned this a few threads ago). The type of debate we are having here is more of an exercise in knowledge. Of course "young" (under 16 or so) people are still learning. So........., if you feel empty, and want a fullness, or completness in your life, the concept of "God" is perfect! If you are at a low point, and need someone to help you through, "God" is there for you. If you want answers to questions that can't be answered, "God" can answer them all (it seems! ) . When you allow God (tired of quotation marks!) in your life, things clear up, and many of the shades of gray become either black or white. (I realize becoming a Christian does not neccesarily make life "easier", as Star Polish and Rian both mentioned on another thread). If you become a Christian, the path for your life is somewhat laid out. You "know" where you want to go, (heaven) and how to get there, (accepting Christ in your life, and trying to live according to his teachings). So if this is what you need or want, it really doesn't matter if anyone else thinks it makes sense! Rian's kisses and time are a strong testimonial to her Christian faith, and they make me feel good! As I mentioned earlier, I think the churches would be easier to fill if nonbelievers were shown what allowing religion in their life would do for them. (but the whole thing is based on "Do you believe?", so it can't be marketed I guess!) Seeing Crhristians full of love, and with a contentment in their life is far more convincing than any debate! So spread your kisses around Rian, and don't worry about it!
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Happy Atheist Go Democrats! Last edited by Lizra : 01-18-2003 at 08:22 PM. |
01-18-2003, 10:12 PM | #239 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Wait, I didn't mean it that way ....
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 01-18-2003 at 10:13 PM. |
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01-18-2003, 10:23 PM | #240 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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