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#1 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: ohio
Posts: 28
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Elves that become mortal
Do elves that become mortal really become mortal? I think that they would become ill and die just like mortals. Does anyone know?
And if they didn't why? |
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#2 |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Indiana, USA
Posts: 1,423
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Perhaps in chosing to become mortal, an elf is given the Gift of Men in its original form, that is the elf can chose when she is weary of the world to depart...just like men were supposed to be able to do and like Aragorn did. This is just my opinion, I could be WAY off
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#3 |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
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Moving to the Middle-earth forum.
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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#4 |
AngAdan
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 856
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We know of no full-blood elf that was given the choice, Even the first Luthian was half Elf and Half Maia.
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#5 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: and why do YOU want to know?
Posts: 685
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![]() Wasn't it only the descendants of Earendil given the choice to become mortal? I also have a question, would Arwen and Aragorn's child(ern) have the choice to become immortal or mortal, aren't they also distantly related?
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The only thing active about me is my imagination! |
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#6 |
AngAdan
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 856
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No child of two mortals (including a parent he had been mixed but elected mortality), got a choice to be Elvish (except for maybe Tour, but the legned of his being made Elvish is dubious, likely a fanciful invention of a later age), Thus none of Elros's children got a choice, nor would it seem that Arwen's did.
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Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," |
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#7 |
Alasailon
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: college
Posts: 861
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Out of all Immortals that indeed became Mortal, their deaths were usually for "Elvish" reasons anyway. Which is why I think it's so hard to be sure of what the newly mortalized Elves are really subject to. Of course, an Elf could "give up their life" too, just as was gifted to the race of Men. The difference is that Mens' souls will leave the circles of the world, while an Elven soul will be reembodied over time. That is Tolkien's true dividing line of being mortal and immortal I think. (I hope this is making sense) So an Elf becoming Mortal would mean that after death they would be freed from the spiritual bonds of Arda. As to any textual reference to back this up I cannot help there.
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"and then this hobbit was walking, and then this elf jumped out of a bush and totally flipped out on him while wailing on his guitar." "Anglorfin was tall and straight; his hair was of shining gold, his face fair and young and fearless and full of anger; his eyes were bright and keen, and his voice like music; on his brow sat wisdom, and in his hand was great skill." |
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#8 |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
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TNW and I discussed this before she posted, and what she really is asking is: if an Elf becomes mortal, do they also become human. Are they biologically changed in anyway, making them subject to sickness and disease, age and death? My answer to this was, they are still Elves, but they are now subject to death and no longer bound to the world. TNW does not agree with me, but this is how I see it.
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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#9 |
I elenfea
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Somewhere in the chaos between the first and second ages! (Actually, CO)
Posts: 556
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The only elves that chose to become mortal, were Luthien and Arwen. After Aragorn's death, Arwen left Middle Earth and went to Valinor. (I think) Luthien however had a second mortal life granted to her in the Halls of Mandos, and she was released with Beren the One Handed from Arda as a mortal. Elros and Elrond were given a choice to stay either in Numenor and/or Valinor or to go to Middle Earth. Elros stayed in Numenor and became the first King while Elrond went to Middle Earth and founded Rivendell becoming it's first and only Lord. As for the original question, Luthien and Arwen were not subjected to mortal diseases or deaths, they remained elflike until Luthien's death and Arwen's journey into the west. ((Gotta love Silmarillion, and Guide to Tolkien!!
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"Middle Earth is a real place. And it is New Zealand." Sir Ian McKellan ****************************** QUESTION AUTHORITY Ask me anything ****************************** "I have not failed, I've only found 10,000 ways that won't work." -Thomas Edison ****************************** Visit Tolkien RP Site! Need members, RP all three Ages! (UNDER CONSTRUCTION) http://elvellon.suddenlaunch2.com ****************************** "Yay, I can hear the voices in my head again! |
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#10 |
Viggoholic
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,749
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After Aragon died, Arwen went to Lorien and died on Cerin Amorth.
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Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try. |
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#11 | |
AngAdan
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 856
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Quote:
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#12 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: ohio
Posts: 28
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So, none of the elves that became mortal aged? Arwen stayed beautiful, and young, while Aragorn got old?
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#13 | |
AngAdan
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 856
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Quote:
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Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," |
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#14 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: ohio
Posts: 28
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SGH, and I argued about this for over an hour. I figured if I started a thread, I would get more opinions on the matter. So they aged a little? Could they get sick? Did mortals get sick? Were there diseases? Would an elf that became mortal be subjact to them?
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#15 |
I elenfea
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Somewhere in the chaos between the first and second ages! (Actually, CO)
Posts: 556
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Thank you, I keep forgetting the end of Arwen's story.
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"Middle Earth is a real place. And it is New Zealand." Sir Ian McKellan ****************************** QUESTION AUTHORITY Ask me anything ****************************** "I have not failed, I've only found 10,000 ways that won't work." -Thomas Edison ****************************** Visit Tolkien RP Site! Need members, RP all three Ages! (UNDER CONSTRUCTION) http://elvellon.suddenlaunch2.com ****************************** "Yay, I can hear the voices in my head again! |
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#16 | |
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 2,870
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Quote:
![]() I'll have to leave again tomorrow (for those of you that even knew I have been gone), so won't be posting again for another week.
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. Last edited by Falagar : 06-27-2003 at 04:08 PM. |
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#17 |
Lord of the Pants
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,382
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Yes, that is an important distinction: they became mortal not human. I do not believe that they aged, or that they were subject to disease.
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#18 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
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I agree with you BoP. Becoming mrotal meant they would share the fate of Men after death. I think they would be like Men in that they would become weary of the world in a few years time, and then they could choose to die, as Arwen did.
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--Life is hard, and then we die. |
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#19 | |
Alasailon
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: college
Posts: 861
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Quote:
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"and then this hobbit was walking, and then this elf jumped out of a bush and totally flipped out on him while wailing on his guitar." "Anglorfin was tall and straight; his hair was of shining gold, his face fair and young and fearless and full of anger; his eyes were bright and keen, and his voice like music; on his brow sat wisdom, and in his hand was great skill." |
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#20 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: ohio
Posts: 28
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Then they weren't truley mortal.?
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