Resources and our environment

Ruinel · 06-23-2003, 11:51 AM

Resources for a population are very important. Clean drinkable water, food, resources to build shelter, and resources for energy are important for a society.

Most of the world relies on fosil fuels and the petrochemical industry for energy. There are countries that use geothermal energy, tidal energy, solar energy collection, wind energy, etc.

I would like to know your thoughts on the state of resources available for energy consumption, as well as the future of those resources.

{If there is a thread already on this, I could not find it anywhere}

Lizra · 06-23-2003, 12:18 PM

I think supply and demand will work things out. As soon as the current fuels become scarcer, and more costly, people wanting to cash in on the next energy source will jump in and market new products. People will have to cope, try new things, and readjust their consumption if necessary, but in the course of a generation or two, things will shift to whatever works. It would be nice if we could anticipate and seemlessly switch without causing upheaval, but people are loath to change their ways. I used to worry about things like this, but now I *know* that people might resist at first, but will adapt fairly quickly when their comfort level is disturbed. As to what kinds of energy....entrepreneurs and opportunists will jump on the bandwagon, may things will be tried...and may the best man (energy) win!

jerseydevil · 06-23-2003, 12:20 PM

I think it's up to indivuals to look and make the right choices. Such as recycling, usiing renewable energy source when it makes SENSE. NJ has the energy Choice Program - so we get to choose who supplies us our electricity. I have Green Mountain. But it's slightly more expensive than normal power generation. I chose it though becuase of the coal plants in the midwest polluting NJ. Coal is stilll where most of the US electric power comes from because it's cheap and abundant here.

Automakers are moving to hybrid cars which is a lot more efficient and would take less time than moving right to hydrogen powered.

One thing that is funny is how democrats, who always claim they are for renewable energy sources - complain when the renewable energy source is obtained in their backyard. In Cape Cod - they want to put a large wind farm in the ocean. The people don't want it because it'll ruin their view. Even thought it will be 5 miles off the shore. See Cape Wind for more information.

In Pennsylvania there are a number of wind farms - particularly along the PA Turnpike. In NJ they have been renting space on the top of buildings, malls, stores, etc and installing solar cells.

There has to be a balance between econony and ecology. In the Northwest it makes no sense. They're against fossil fuels, they're against nuclear power and they're against the dams now. I don't knwo what they want since there is no other source great enough to supply the power that Northwest needs. Maybe they should just turn out the lights and abandon the place.

Down the road from in Plainsboro is the Princeton Plasma Physics Labatory where they are the top research facility in Fusion Power.

Ruinel · 06-23-2003, 12:23 PM

I live in Texas, a state in the US in which a great deal of income is produced by the petrochemical industry.

However, that does not taint my views on energy.

My electricity comes not from a fosil fuel burning energy plant but from a company that uses wind energy. If you travel toward the west of my state, you can see the fields of giant wind mills turning on the mesas. It's quite impressive.

I think that the availability of the hydrogen-vehicles (the vehicles that use a methane, hydrogen saturated fuel and [b]produce only water vapor as exhaust[b]) is slow in coming to my state. I'm quite anxious because I know that buses have been produced as hydrogen-vehicles, and therefore surely trucks can be produced as well. For more information Hydrogen Fuel in the U.S. go here .

But I'll confess. I own an SUV. I do a lot of camping, backpacking and kayaking and need a vehicle with a high clearance to travel the back roads to get to where I need to go. (I've even had to sleep in the back a couple of times.) And the jeep I would have gotten would not hold a kayak rack.

So, I am one of the people that consumes all that gasoline. And perhaps if the gasoline were more than $1.33/gallon, I would give up kayaking all together *wimpers*, sell it and just get the jeep. Though, the SUV I own had the best gas milage for an true SUV on the market at the time.

Lizra · 06-23-2003, 02:51 PM

Yes, when fossil fuels get very expensive, people will drop then like hot potatoes!

Then the field will be wide open for people to make (or lose!) mucho money on the new energies! Lots of people are doing geothermal heating here.

jerseydevil · 06-23-2003, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lizra
Yes, when fossil fuels get very expensive, people will drop then like hot potatoes! Then the field will be wide open for people to make (or lose!) mucho money on the new energies! Lots of people are doing geothermal heating here.

Exactly - it's the free market economy at work. People have top decide when they'll go to hybrid cars - I've seen several out in NJ - but they are still more expensive than a standard car. The state and the federal government both give tax incentives to buy them. But it's up to people to decide when the switch will take place. Only when it is economically feasible will more peopel choose renewable energy and less polluting energy sources.

Ruinel · 06-23-2003, 04:31 PM

As a consumer of those energy resources, I'll tell you, I'd fly to the car dealership to buy the first hydrogen-SUV on the market!

I also think that it is the responsibility of the consumer not to waste those resources, just because they are cheap or it is convenient. Walk to the store, turn off lights when you aren't in the room. Open a window instead of using the air conditioning when you can.

I know that some countries can take advantage of geothermal energy. What country do you live in Lizra?

Also, I'm not so nieve to believe that each country can use the same renewable or non-poluting resources for energy. For example, countries that live farther to the north (ie, Canada and northern European countries) are limited in what energy sources they can use (can't use Solar power for much when there are times of the year when the sun exposure is limited).

Lizra · 06-23-2003, 04:37 PM

I live in the US, in the lovely state of Indiana.

Ruinel · 06-23-2003, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lizra
I live in the US, in the lovely state of Indiana.

Ah.. Indiana... visited there once, but only saw a lot of pig farms. No offense intended, though, it's just what I saw of the state.

I'm impressed with your state that they use geothermal.

Way to go, Indiana!

Where do they get the geothermal energy from?

Lizra · 06-23-2003, 06:48 PM

My place used to be a pig farm! I remember going into the barn with the realtor...those huge pigs were scary!

Now it's a cat, children and flower farm! Anyway, I don't think they use actual geothermal resource, (like in Iceland or where ever) but all the pipes are underground and save you fuel and money. New homes can do this, of course they get a tax break too. I'd have to ask my neighbor how hers works.

jerseydevil · 06-23-2003, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lizra
My place used to be a pig farm! I remember going into the barn with the realtor...those huge pigs were scary! Now it's a cat, children and flower farm! Anyway, I don't think they use actual geothermal resource, (like in Iceland or where ever) but all the pipes are underground and save you fuel and money. New homes can do this, of course they get a tax break too. I'd have to ask my neighbor how hers works.

My father's house had geothermal. It didn't exactly work right - but it was the same concept. The pipes in the ground allowed the air conditioner to work more efficietly and everything else.

***Jonathan*** · 06-23-2003, 07:52 PM

There are different kinds of geothermal energy. In Iceland, they get their energy from the hot springs which are common there.

Then there are geothermal with long pipes down in the ground. They stretch down to hot subterranean lakes and extract hot water from there to transform to electricity. The lakes' water supplies can get exhausted though, and you can't get any more energy from them.

Finally there's energy that's extracted from the upper layer of the ground. The ground has a somewhat constant temperature of a few degrees, and you can use those degrees to get electricity.

Ruinel · 06-23-2003, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lizra
My place used to be a pig farm! I remember going into the barn with the realtor...those huge pigs were scary! Now it's a cat, children and flower farm!

Hmmm... a country girl, eh?

Quote:

Anyway, I don't think they use actual geothermal resource, (like in Iceland or where ever) but all the pipes are underground and save you fuel and money. New homes can do this, of course they get a tax break too. I'd have to ask my neighbor how hers works.

I've heard some of Iceland's geothermal resources. (Thanks Jonathan for the information.) I know there is a lot of what might be considered volcanic activityl.... errr... wait ... that doesn't sound right... more like... fissures in the ground... not really volcanoes erupting... that's more what I mean. And then I think Jonathan explained it better.

If you could get that information about your form of geothermal energy, I would be happy to hear more.

jerseydevil · 06-23-2003, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ruinel
I know there is a lot of what might be considered volcanic activityl.... errr... wait ... that doesn't sound right... more like... fissures in the ground... not really volcanoes erupting... that's more what I mean. And then I think Jonathan explained it better.

The Northwest could probably use geothermal energy - but I don't knwo if anyone would really risk the investiment or the chances of the lights all going out in the northwest by putting geothermal equipment on semi-active volcanoes. While I was in oregon - they were afraid several of the volcanoes were ready to erupt.

From at least Mt Hood (50 miles from my apartment and Portland) to Mt St Helens and Mt Ranier - there was geologic activity. Hot springs were heating up, minor tremors, etc. Volcanologists kept being sent to the mountains to take readings and determine if an eruption was about to occur. They said it had been the most activity in years and years. I don't know what the situation is now - because I don't we don't get that kind of news all the way on the other side of the US. It would have to be an imminent eruption really.

When I took my friends up to Mt Ranier - they didn't like standing on the mountain and seeing seismic activity indicated on the equipment. Volcanoes of the Northwest

They would be a great source of geothermal energy though.

Ruinel · 06-23-2003, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerseydevil
The Northwest could probably use geothermal energy - but I don't knwo if anyone would really risk the investiment or the chances of the lights all going out in the northwest by putting geothermal equipment on semi-active volcanoes. While I was in oregon - they were afraid several of the volcanoes were ready to erupt....
They would be a great source of geothermal energy though.

I don't know if it would work either. That's really the purpose of this thread, to discuss possibilities.

From what I've read of the activity in Iceland, it is stable and constant. The lights don't 'go out' (as you put it).

So, perhaps that is a good source of energy for them, but maybe not so good for the northwest U.S.

if it is so unstable.

Legolas_Frodo_Aragorn · 06-23-2003, 11:34 PM

I beleive that we should research and start to put into action ideas that dont use as much fuel and natural resources. Do we really want to wait untill we run out of oil before we have to do this?

Last year...we had our states debate on this topic..i was going to post my speeches...but i cant find them

Lizra · 06-23-2003, 11:54 PM

The thing is, if you jump ahead, your going to spend alot of $ on stuff that doesn't work quite right. (or the wrong thing all together!) A lot of people in the 70's tried to get on the solar bandwagon for the great tax breaks, but the stuff wasn't up to snuff yet! When it comes to big investments like cars, or the heating and cooling system of your home, it's best to invest in a product that is "tried and true". You sort of have to wait for the supply and demand scheme to be working in your favor! Still, you can do things like insulate your home well, trying to conserve. We are (pretty much) the product of the times we live in, once it becomes cheaper to use solar, wind or other types of power, consumer products will quickly get refined and become affordable. (I hope!) I'm not the "Mother Earth News" type I thought I was when I was in high school!

Besides, what's the point of being a nut about energy use if everyone around you isn't! That's why I don't mind too much they put the taxes on gas, or set the standards higher for air pollution controls. It will make prices higher (ow!) but that's the only thing that will bring about *real* change.

Ruinel · 06-24-2003, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lizra
...Besides, what's the point of being a nut about energy use if everyone around you isn't!...

hmmm.... because you can influence others around you. All it would take is for them to see how it works for you. And then be influenced to do the same.

***Jonathan*** · 06-24-2003, 11:47 AM

I think nuclear energy can replace fossil fuels in the future. I know the Bush administration is considering building new nuclear power plants in the US, which I think is a good idea.
Nuclear energy is clean, cheep and gives great amounts of energy. The supplies of uranium or thorium that is needed in the plants won't be exhausted for a very long time, unlike oil. With the best kinds of power plants, the supplies of uranium and thorium could last for billions of years.
So go ahead and throw up new nuclear power plants! Just make sure they have a shell of concrete around their reactor. We don't want risking another Chernobyl, do we?

My 1100th post. In binary numbers, that means 12. Take 12 times 2 and you get 24, which is today's date

Lizra · 06-24-2003, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ruinel
hmmm.... because you can influence others around you. All it would take is for them to see how it works for you. And then be influenced to do the same.

I understand your point, but I have found that it doesn't seem to work that way!

Most others don't seem to be easily influenced, and you just end up working twice as hard, or spending twice as much, while everyone else watches you and thinks you're a nut!

(sorry!) I'd rather see curbside recycling permanently established (probably because the trash scene was getting dire) than for local "powers that be" to just go on not incorporating change into the local government because *some* people are doing it. (recycling, conserving resources, whatever...) I'd like to see environmental changes mandatory, not optional. I understand what you are saying though, and some example setting is good, of course things don't change overnight....but people at large will ALWAYS do what is easiest and cheapest I'm afraid! I guess I'm saying you may as well wait till the crises looms large, cause people won't change till it does. I'm afraid I'm jaded!

06-23-2003, 11:51 AM	#1
Ruinel Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: I have no idea. Posts: 5,441	Resources and our environment Resources for a population are very important. Clean drinkable water, food, resources to build shelter, and resources for energy are important for a society. Most of the world relies on fosil fuels and the petrochemical industry for energy. There are countries that use geothermal energy, tidal energy, solar energy collection, wind energy, etc. I would like to know your thoughts on the state of resources available for energy consumption, as well as the future of those resources. {If there is a thread already on this, I could not find it anywhere}

06-23-2003, 12:20 PM	#3
jerseydevil I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Plainsboro, NJ Posts: 9,431	I think it's up to indivuals to look and make the right choices. Such as recycling, usiing renewable energy source when it makes SENSE. NJ has the energy Choice Program - so we get to choose who supplies us our electricity. I have Green Mountain. But it's slightly more expensive than normal power generation. I chose it though becuase of the coal plants in the midwest polluting NJ. Coal is stilll where most of the US electric power comes from because it's cheap and abundant here. Automakers are moving to hybrid cars which is a lot more efficient and would take less time than moving right to hydrogen powered. One thing that is funny is how democrats, who always claim they are for renewable energy sources - complain when the renewable energy source is obtained in their backyard. In Cape Cod - they want to put a large wind farm in the ocean. The people don't want it because it'll ruin their view. Even thought it will be 5 miles off the shore. See Cape Wind for more information. In Pennsylvania there are a number of wind farms - particularly along the PA Turnpike. In NJ they have been renting space on the top of buildings, malls, stores, etc and installing solar cells. There has to be a balance between econony and ecology. In the Northwest it makes no sense. They're against fossil fuels, they're against nuclear power and they're against the dams now. I don't knwo what they want since there is no other source great enough to supply the power that Northwest needs. Maybe they should just turn out the lights and abandon the place. Down the road from in Plainsboro is the Princeton Plasma Physics Labatory where they are the top research facility in Fusion Power. __________________ Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 06-23-2003 at 12:23 PM.

06-23-2003, 07:52 PM	#12
*Jonathan* Entmoot Attorney-General, Equilibrating the Scales of Justice, Administrator ♎ Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 3,891	There are different kinds of geothermal energy. In Iceland, they get their energy from the hot springs which are common there. Then there are geothermal with long pipes down in the ground. They stretch down to hot subterranean lakes and extract hot water from there to transform to electricity. The lakes' water supplies can get exhausted though, and you can't get any more energy from them. Finally there's energy that's extracted from the upper layer of the ground. The ground has a somewhat constant temperature of a few degrees, and you can use those degrees to get electricity. __________________ An unwritten post is a delightful universe of infinite possibilities. Set down one word, however, and it immediately becomes earthbound. Set down one sentence and it’s halfway to being just like every other bloody entry that’s ever been written. ☻

06-23-2003, 11:34 PM	#16
Legolas_Frodo_Aragorn The Elven Queen Of All Pyros Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Im like a little bug stuck in the lamp...never going anywhere Posts: 795	I beleive that we should research and start to put into action ideas that dont use as much fuel and natural resources. Do we really want to wait untill we run out of oil before we have to do this? Last year...we had our states debate on this topic..i was going to post my speeches...but i cant find them __________________ Would you judge my future based on what i did in the past? Procrastinators Unite!!!.....tomorrrow.... Kids in backseats cause accidents...accidents in backseats cause kids As long as there are tests..there will be prayers in school

06-24-2003, 11:47 AM	#19
*Jonathan* Entmoot Attorney-General, Equilibrating the Scales of Justice, Administrator ♎ Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 3,891	I think nuclear energy can replace fossil fuels in the future. I know the Bush administration is considering building new nuclear power plants in the US, which I think is a good idea. Nuclear energy is clean, cheep and gives great amounts of energy. The supplies of uranium or thorium that is needed in the plants won't be exhausted for a very long time, unlike oil. With the best kinds of power plants, the supplies of uranium and thorium could last for billions of years. So go ahead and throw up new nuclear power plants! Just make sure they have a shell of concrete around their reactor. We don't want risking another Chernobyl, do we? My 1100th post. In binary numbers, that means 12. Take 12 times 2 and you get 24, which is today's date __________________ An unwritten post is a delightful universe of infinite possibilities. Set down one word, however, and it immediately becomes earthbound. Set down one sentence and it’s halfway to being just like every other bloody entry that’s ever been written. ☻

06-23-2003, 12:18 PM	#2
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	I think supply and demand will work things out. As soon as the current fuels become scarcer, and more costly, people wanting to cash in on the next energy source will jump in and market new products. People will have to cope, try new things, and readjust their consumption if necessary, but in the course of a generation or two, things will shift to whatever works. It would be nice if we could anticipate and seemlessly switch without causing upheaval, but people are loath to change their ways. I used to worry about things like this, but now I know that people might resist at first, but will adapt fairly quickly when their comfort level is disturbed. As to what kinds of energy....entrepreneurs and opportunists will jump on the bandwagon, may things will be tried...and may the best man (energy) win!

06-23-2003, 12:23 PM	#4
Ruinel Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: I have no idea. Posts: 5,441	I live in Texas, a state in the US in which a great deal of income is produced by the petrochemical industry. However, that does not taint my views on energy. My electricity comes not from a fosil fuel burning energy plant but from a company that uses wind energy. If you travel toward the west of my state, you can see the fields of giant wind mills turning on the mesas. It's quite impressive. I think that the availability of the hydrogen-vehicles (the vehicles that use a methane, hydrogen saturated fuel and [b]produce only water vapor as exhaust[b]) is slow in coming to my state. I'm quite anxious because I know that buses have been produced as hydrogen-vehicles, and therefore surely trucks can be produced as well. For more information Hydrogen Fuel in the U.S. go here . But I'll confess. I own an SUV. I do a lot of camping, backpacking and kayaking and need a vehicle with a high clearance to travel the back roads to get to where I need to go. (I've even had to sleep in the back a couple of times.) And the jeep I would have gotten would not hold a kayak rack. So, I am one of the people that consumes all that gasoline. And perhaps if the gasoline were more than $1.33/gallon, I would give up kayaking all together wimpers, sell it and just get the jeep. Though, the SUV I own had the best gas milage for an true SUV on the market at the time.

06-23-2003, 02:51 PM	#5
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	Yes, when fossil fuels get very expensive, people will drop then like hot potatoes! Then the field will be wide open for people to make (or lose!) mucho money on the new energies! Lots of people are doing geothermal heating here.

06-23-2003, 04:31 PM	#7
Ruinel Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: I have no idea. Posts: 5,441	As a consumer of those energy resources, I'll tell you, I'd fly to the car dealership to buy the first hydrogen-SUV on the market! I also think that it is the responsibility of the consumer not to waste those resources, just because they are cheap or it is convenient. Walk to the store, turn off lights when you aren't in the room. Open a window instead of using the air conditioning when you can. I know that some countries can take advantage of geothermal energy. What country do you live in Lizra? Also, I'm not so nieve to believe that each country can use the same renewable or non-poluting resources for energy. For example, countries that live farther to the north (ie, Canada and northern European countries) are limited in what energy sources they can use (can't use Solar power for much when there are times of the year when the sun exposure is limited).

06-23-2003, 04:37 PM	#8
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	I live in the US, in the lovely state of Indiana.

06-23-2003, 06:48 PM	#10
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	My place used to be a pig farm! I remember going into the barn with the realtor...those huge pigs were scary! Now it's a cat, children and flower farm! Anyway, I don't think they use actual geothermal resource, (like in Iceland or where ever) but all the pipes are underground and save you fuel and money. New homes can do this, of course they get a tax break too. I'd have to ask my neighbor how hers works.

06-23-2003, 11:54 PM	#17
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	The thing is, if you jump ahead, your going to spend alot of $ on stuff that doesn't work quite right. (or the wrong thing all together!) A lot of people in the 70's tried to get on the solar bandwagon for the great tax breaks, but the stuff wasn't up to snuff yet! When it comes to big investments like cars, or the heating and cooling system of your home, it's best to invest in a product that is "tried and true". You sort of have to wait for the supply and demand scheme to be working in your favor! Still, you can do things like insulate your home well, trying to conserve. We are (pretty much) the product of the times we live in, once it becomes cheaper to use solar, wind or other types of power, consumer products will quickly get refined and become affordable. (I hope!) I'm not the "Mother Earth News" type I thought I was when I was in high school! Besides, what's the point of being a nut about energy use if everyone around you isn't! That's why I don't mind too much they put the taxes on gas, or set the standards higher for air pollution controls. It will make prices higher (ow!) but that's the only thing that will bring about real change.