"Hero" according to Tolkien

[Shadowfax]

How do you think Tolkien would define a hero, when you look at the various characters in the Lord of the Rings (not the Hobbit or Sil, just LotR)? Also, do you think he created different types of heros in LotR?

Note to mods: I know there is a "Who's the hero of LotR" thread, but I think this is a little different than that. If you don't think so, though, go ahead and close this.

[gimli7410]

i think he would define a hero as someone who has great virtues and leadership. i think marry and pippen were just minor characters at the begining of the book of the book but in the end they both came out heroes

[Laurus Nobilis]

I think there are a lot of kinds of heros in LotR. There's the leader-type, like Aragorn; the virtous type, like Frodo; and my favourite of all: the unlikely heros. What I love about Tolkien is that he made simple people like Sam become heros through their efforts and virtues. I think he probably wanted to show that every person can be heroic.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by gimli7410
i think he would define a hero as someone who has great virtues and leadership. i think marry and pippen were just minor characters at the begining of the book of the book but in the end they both came out heroes

I wouldn't think Leadership would have much to do with being a Hero. Frodo and Sam are the biggest heroes in the book, but hardly great leaders.

[LutraMage]

Originally posted by Laurus Nobilis
...What I love about Tolkien is that he made simple people like Sam become heros through their efforts and virtues. I think he probably wanted to show that every person can be heroic.

Spot on ! I think that's the real essence of Tolkien's message, or at least, that everyone has it within themselves to be a hero, but it depends on the decisions we make (look at Saruman).

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Tolkien didn't write a message. He wrote a Story.

[Elvengirl]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Tolkien didn't write a message. He wrote a Story.

Thank You GW!

I don't think it has to do with the ability of being a leader, but more on the decisions and actions one takes despite everything to make a difference for the better. To push through all opposition and evil and defeat it.

[cassiopeia]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
I wouldn't think Leadership would have much to do with being a Hero. Frodo and Sam are the biggest heroes in the book, but hardly great leaders.

Hey, they might have been great mayors.

Tolkien says that Sam is the hero of LOTR, so I think he believes that a hero is somebody who leads a relatively normal life, but then when they really need to, they can keep going against all the odds and succeed.

He most definitely created different heroes in LOTR. The hobbits are small, yet courageous; whilst Aragorn and Gandalf are your more typical heroes: wise, 'magical' and noble. Then there's Legolas who is quiet but brave, and Gimli who's grim yet determined. And Faramir is a hero because he is so wise and thoughtful in resisting the tempatation of the Ring, unlike his brother. But Boromir gave his life for the hobbits, so he also redeems himself and becomes a hero.

[LutraMage]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Tolkien didn't write a message. He wrote a Story.

Absolutely, in fact he makes the point in his forward to LoTR's when he writes "As for any inner meaning or 'message', it has in the intention of the author none.". However, if we all just stop there GW, we may as well close Entmoot, unless we want the Board to just become a place to regurgitate bits of the Books to show how clever we are at finding obsure parts of the text .

Whilst the book itself doesn't have to have a message (in the sense that Tolkien wasn't trying to make a point in the way C S Lewis was in the Narnian tales) but just had a fantastic story to tell, nevertheless, it is the thousands of 'messages' hidden in the Middle Earth tales that make the book a classic and leads to people like us spending all our time reading, rereading and then discussing them.

IMO, JRRT had messages to tell us about good and evil; right and wrong; human frailty; the limits of magic (or miracle) solutions; greed; love; the power of God(s); saving the environment; how far a horse can be ridden before it tires; how a great society can be created or decay; and millions of other things, both mundane and fantastical, that catch our imagination and make us think. Of course, he didn't intentionally put all these messages in the book, but, in another sense, it is a measure of his greatness as an author that he did know he was putting most of those messages there.

So, "I think that [as far as 'heroes' are concerned] the real essence of Tolkien's message [not perhaps deliberately implanted by JRR, but no less part of what he was saying with his 'story']...is that everyone has it within themselves to be a hero, but it depends on the decisions we make." Is that okay?

[Lady of Rohan]

True what every one has said. There are so many heros in the book, and all by different means (Like Sam is a hero in a different way then Gandalf, perhaps. Which makes the story even more interesting, when the heros are unlikely, and the meaning even deeper.).

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by LutraMage
Whilst the book itself doesn't have to have a message (in the sense that Tolkien wasn't trying to make a point in the way C S Lewis was in the Narnian tales) but just had a fantastic story to tell, nevertheless, it is the thousands of 'messages' hidden in the Middle Earth tales that make the book a classic and leads to people like us spending all our time reading, rereading and then discussing them.

IMO, JRRT had messages to tell us about good and evil; right and wrong; human frailty; the limits of magic (or miracle) solutions; greed; love; the power of God(s); saving the environment; how far a horse can be ridden before it tires; how a great society can be created or decay; and millions of other things, both mundane and fantastical, that catch our imagination and make us think. Of course, he didn't intentionally put all these messages in the book, but, in another sense, it is a measure of his greatness as an author that he did know he was putting most of those messages there.

So, "I think that [as far as 'heroes' are concerned] the real essence of Tolkien's message [not perhaps deliberately implanted by JRR, but no less part of what he was saying with his 'story']...is that everyone has it within themselves to be a hero, but it depends on the decisions we make." Is that okay?

I don't know if I agree with that. Tolkien was very much influenced by many things in his life, especially his faith; but these things were influences, not directly implanted messages.

[Sween]

You should not disregard what i would call the blue blood of tolkien though. He was a firm believer in who your father was. Aragorn for example has a strain of the devine in him and was unmingled with lesser men. The high elves it mattred who you were related to! so some people were born heoric or with more than the capibility to be!

Even with the hobbits its well noted about the took strain meaning they like to adventure and baggins been a more sensiable sort (Gandalfs reasons for picking Bilbo). The only member of the Fellowship that isnt born into a well established higher line or prince like status (is gimli a prince?) is Sam, hes the guy that comes out of left feild!

Its a shame you want to restricted this to just LOTR cos theres loads of stuff on this but i think he was a believer in team work end of the day they are all heros they all do there part what kind of a king could Aragorn be if he didnt have good soliders to comand? Its al;l about doing your best and i think they were no slackers in the Fellowship (apart from that Gandalf character allways bu**ring off when you most need him )

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Sween
1) You should not disregard what i would call the blue blood of tolkien though. He was a firm believer in who your father was. Aragorn for example has a strain of the devine in him and was unmingled with lesser men. The high elves it mattred who you were related to! so some people were born heoric or with more than the capibility to be!

2) Even with the hobbits its well noted about the took strain meaning they like to adventure and baggins been a more sensiable sort (Gandalfs reasons for picking Bilbo). The only member of the Fellowship that isnt born into a well established higher line or prince like status (is gimli a prince?) is Sam, hes the guy that comes out of left feild!

Its a shame you want to restricted this to just LOTR cos theres loads of stuff on this but i think he was a believer in team work end of the day they are all heros they all do there part what kind of a king could Aragorn be if he didnt have good soliders to comand? Its al;l about doing your best and i think they were no slackers in the Fellowship (apart from that Gandalf character allways bu**ring off when you most need him )

1) Completely agree.
2) I always thought that that was because of their dealings with the Elves, that they sort of "rubbed off". The Fallohides were quite Elvish hobbits, in many respects.

[Anglorfin]

I always thought that Tolkien had a personal liking to the character of Sam. So simple, yet able to withstand almost anything. In the end, Sween is right about teamwork though. I couldn't imagine the ending working out as it did if it weren't for everybody involved and the parts that each of them played.

[Sister Golden Hair]

I think Tolkien shows many sides of what makes up a hero, especially in Sam's charachter. Would Sam have done all that he did had he not felt the way he did about Frodo? Would he have even become involved with the quest? I think Tolkien shows how love can be a strong motivation for self sacrifice and heroism. That love can replace fear with bravery.

[Ararax]

sam was one fo the few who posessed the ring that did not feel its power, but thats partially because he held it the shortest, but also because of his pure heart. isdulur held it for a short time and was devoured by it. sam is a very stedfast character

[Sister Golden Hair]

Well, I don't want to call Sam simple minded, but I think one of the biggest reasons that the Ring had little if any effect on him was that he was innocent in so many ways. Maybe ignorant would be a suitable word.

[LutraMage]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
I don't know if I agree with that. Tolkien was very much influenced by many things in his life, especially his faith; but these things were influences, not directly implanted messages.

I actually think we do broadly agree, but we may be coming down to splitting hairs. The difference between a message and an influence is very subtle (not that we shouldn't be subtle ). Like any writer, Tolkien wanted his readers to feel certain things by what he wrote, to influence them if you like, and to do so he knowingly crafted his words and language to send out subliminal messages to his readers. So his influences did lead to directly implanted messages.

However, if you don't agree, we can happily agree to disagree. I still think Tolkien had messages he wanted to get over in his books and one of those was about the nature of heroism.

[Silpion]

I tend to agree with most of what everyone here says about Tolkien and heroes. I like the fact that all the heroes are not all alike. It seems as if almost anyone can be a hero, even a person who you wouldn’t expect.

posted by cassiopeia
He most definitely created different heroes in LOTR. The hobbits are small, yet courageous; whilst Aragorn and Gandalf are your more typical heroes: wise, 'magical' and noble. Then there's Legolas who is quiet but brave, and Gimli who's grim yet determined. And Faramir is a hero because he is so wise and thoughtful in resisting the tempatation of the Ring, unlike his brother. But Boromir gave his life for the hobbits, so he also redeems himself and becomes a hero.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by LutraMage
However, if we all just stop there GW, we may as well close Entmoot, unless we want the Board to just become a place to regurgitate bits of the Books to show how clever we are at finding obsure parts of the text .

oh you mean it isnt?? Thats the impression I get sometimes.

Originally posted by Silpion
I like the fact that all the heroes are not all alike. It seems as if almost anyone can be a hero, even a person who you wouldn’t expect.

I think that about sums it up. Tolkien believed the germ of heroism is in us all. Even in the most unlikely of characters. You can feel that belief throughout the books buttressing up the action with a sort of unseen hope. At least I could. But then Im not a literalist.