Gandalf vs Sauron?

sauron100 · 12-29-2002, 03:38 AM

My understandings, and other members have told me that Sauron can easily kill Gandalf or Saramon or both in battle at the same time.Is this true or is their more to this than I understand?Can anyone tell me what the type of odds would be if Sauron had no ring against Gandalf and Saramon?Feedback would be great, I am a newbie so forgive my ramblings and some expert opinions would be greatly appreciated.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 12-29-2002, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sauron100
My understandings, and other members have told me that Sauron can easily kill Gandalf or Saramon or both in battle at the same time.Is this true or is their more to this than I understand?Can anyone tell me what the type of odds would be if Sauron had no ring against Gandalf and Saramon?Feedback would be great, I am a newbie so forgive my ramblings and some expert opinions would be greatly appreciated.

Well, Gandalf, Sauron, and Saruman were all Maiar. Sauron was more powerful IMO because he being evil was not limited in the use of his powers in Middle-earth. The Istari were sent by the Valar to aid the free people in their struggle against evil, but were not permitted to use their powers to their full extent in the human forms they had taken. Saruman was easily corrupted by Sauron from gazing into the Palantir.

***Khamûl*** · 12-29-2002, 11:43 PM

I'm not sure about Sauron fighting Gandalf and Saruman at the same time, but Sauron could have taken Gandalf in a one-on-one fight.

From The Two Towers Chapter - The White Rider

Quote:

"Dangerous!" cried Gandalf. "And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord." ... "I am Gandalf, Gandalf the White, but Black is mightier still."

Ñólendil · 12-30-2002, 09:29 PM

[accidental double post]

Ñólendil · 12-30-2002, 09:29 PM

I think many posters here put too much stock in physical fights. For myself, I don't care who would have won in single combat: Gandalf the White or Sauron. Sauron was mightier, as Khamûl pointed out, and that is enough for me.

I don't know what Sauron in the War of the Ring looked like, and neither does anyone else, although he must have been hideous, and I don't know if he was much of a fighter. We know from Gollum that one of his hands has only nine fingers, but that doesn't tell us much. Saruman doesn't seem to have been much of a warrior, that was more Gandalf's area, which is fitting because he was much more of a traveller than Saruman and especially Radagast.

Sauron was in some way more powerful than Gandalf and Saruman: always was, and remained so even in his waning strength without the Ring -- but he was a political tyrant, a mover of hosts, a god of heathens, a maker of evil things, a sorcerer and a necromancer, not a knight or champion.

Artanis · 12-31-2002, 06:35 AM

I think Ñólendil is pretty much right. Sauron's power was not physical, but he had a great power to dominate others and bend them under his will. I am not sure he would have endured long in a fight with Gandalf or Sarumann, if he should rely only on his physical strength. But at the time of the war of the Ring, he had gathered a huge number of servants and followers, some of them quite powerful, and he had his mighty fortress Barad-Dur in Mordor, and that's where he stayed. He did not risk to go out into war, but rather sent out his forces and the Ringwraiths.

ThorinOakenshield · 01-02-2003, 07:06 AM

I agree with Sister Golden Hair. She's right, or I have no beard!

WallRocker · 01-02-2003, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
The Istari were sent by the Valar to aid the free people in their struggle against evil, but were not permitted to use their powers to their full extent in the human forms they had taken.

Roght. For mroe on this... read Tolkiens essay on the Istari in 'Unfinshed Tales'. BTW, I know 'Unfinshed Tales' talks a lot about the Istari, but do any other of Tolkiens books talk about the Istari in any greater detail?

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-02-2003, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by WallRocker
Roght. For mroe on this... read Tolkiens essay on the Istari in 'Unfinshed Tales'. BTW, I know 'Unfinshed Tales' talks a lot about the Istari, but do any other of Tolkiens books talk about the Istari in any greater detail?

The HoMe series covers just about everything. I can't tell you which books of that series would be best on the Istari, because I have just bounced around from book to book never reading them from cover to cover. I have to stop doing that.

Sween · 01-02-2003, 04:23 PM

Sauron wasnt that much of a fighter he was a mover and shaker a good genral does not lead from the frount.

everytime sauron ever came out to single combat he was defeated. Gandalf probably could wipe the floor with him in single combat but to get to him he would have to beat all the armys of mordor and break down the door of bar dur something even gandalf wasnt capable of

Finmandos12 · 01-02-2003, 10:41 PM

What do you all mean by "single combat"? If you mean fighting with swords, then the idea is irrelevant. In today's modern fantasy, it seems every powerful character fights hand-to-hand. Its not like that in Tolkien's vision. If you mean by "magic" (I hate to use that word, but I can't think of a better one) then Sauron had much more power.

Nilore · 01-07-2003, 03:14 PM

Hmmmmmmm?????????

I thought Gandalf and the Istari were Maia of lesser power?

Is this true?????????????????????????????????

Shadowfax · 01-07-2003, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nilore
Hmmmmmmm?????????

I thought Gandalf and the Istari were Maia of lesser power?

Is this true?????????????????????????????????

Yeah, in a sense they were of lesser power . . . in Middle Earth, because as many have said before me, they were restricted on how much of their power they could use.

**Nurvingiel** · 01-08-2003, 05:14 AM

Gandalf describes himself as the enemy of Sauron. I think part of where Gandalf 'evens the odds' is how he subtly helps people do good, and therefore increases the power of all good. He also has friends he can trust, while Sauron doesn't and isn't trusted by anyone.

Andúril · 01-08-2003, 03:20 PM

I've always wondered about Olorin in "unrestricted power mode"; a one-on-one tangle with Sauron in that form would have been quite interesting...

Elfhelm · 01-08-2003, 08:37 PM

I thought Gandalf won, didn't he?

Just Kidding. I realize the ask was about a one-on-one, but I had to be a joker.

Seriously, though, since both of them actually fight by leading armies, Gandalf did win because he had Frodo and Sam, and he had pity on his side and that saved Smeagol, which proved to be the crux of the matter.

Captain Stern · 01-08-2003, 09:08 PM

I disagree entirely with the oppinion that any of the istari were anywhere near the power level of Sauron, even if they were allowed to use all their powers.

Why? Because of Saruman. After he became 'bad' he was no longer bound by the laws the Valar had placed on him and so used his powers to the full, totally unchecked. And, even after this, his power was, clearly, feeble compared to Sauron's, even though he was the greatest of the Istari.

Andúril · 01-09-2003, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Captain Stern:
I disagree entirely with the oppinion(sic) that any of the istari were anywhere near the power level of Sauron, even if they were allowed to use all their powers.

Why? Because of Saruman. After he became 'bad' he was no longer bound by the laws the Valar had placed on him and so used his powers to the full, totally unchecked.

*snip*

I'm not so sure about this. Can you back this up?

Captain Stern · 01-11-2003, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Anduril: Can you back this up?

Well the consensus seems to be that the main reason Morgoth and Sauron were more powerful than their peers was because they were evil and therefore it didn't matter to them that the full use of their power would damage the land.

So what's so different between Saruman and Sauron? Are you suggesting that Saruman would still obide by the laws of the Valar even after he cast off his loyalty to them?

Or maybe it's my comparison of their power you object to? There are numerous quotes of Gandalf saying that Saruman was less powerful than Sauron, even though he was the greatest Istar...

Are you gonna make me go find those quotes?

But it was quite clear that he was weaker than Sauron anyway; His army was smaller; he had nothing to compare to Barad-Dur; And, later on, did he not come under the power of Sauron as a result of their commmunication through the Palantiri?

Andúril · 01-11-2003, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Captain Stern:
*snip*

Are you suggesting that Saruman would still obide by the laws of the Valar even after he cast off his loyalty to them?

As far as I know, the Istari were restricted by the Valar, and not by themselves as an act of loyalty. Therefore, Saruman could do whatever he wanted with the power given to him. Keep in mind that I do not own or possess any HoME books, or the Silmarillian, so I could be blatantly wrong about this.

Quote:

More:
There are numerous quotes of Gandalf saying that Saruman was less powerful than Sauron, even though he was the greatest Istar...

Do any of these quotes indicate Saruman's native power, or do they speak of Saruman as the restricted White Istar?

Quote:

More:
Are you gonna make me go find those quotes?

Only if they do not fall under the latter context above.

Quote:

More:
But it was quite clear that he was weaker than Sauron anyway; His army was smaller; he had nothing to compare to Barad-Dur; And, later on, did he not come under the power of Sauron as a result of their commmunication through the Palantiri?

All of this can be explained by the assumption I make at the beginning of this post - that the power of the Istari was not decided by the individuals, but by the Valar.

Can you show that my assumption is incorrect?

12-29-2002, 03:38 AM	#1
sauron100 Hobbit Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 16	Gandalf vs Sauron? My understandings, and other members have told me that Sauron can easily kill Gandalf or Saramon or both in battle at the same time.Is this true or is their more to this than I understand?Can anyone tell me what the type of odds would be if Sauron had no ring against Gandalf and Saramon?Feedback would be great, I am a newbie so forgive my ramblings and some expert opinions would be greatly appreciated.

12-30-2002, 09:29 PM	#4
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	[accidental double post] __________________ Falmon -- Dylan Last edited by Ñólendil : 12-30-2002 at 09:30 PM.

12-30-2002, 09:29 PM	#5
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	I think many posters here put too much stock in physical fights. For myself, I don't care who would have won in single combat: Gandalf the White or Sauron. Sauron was mightier, as Khamûl pointed out, and that is enough for me. I don't know what Sauron in the War of the Ring looked like, and neither does anyone else, although he must have been hideous, and I don't know if he was much of a fighter. We know from Gollum that one of his hands has only nine fingers, but that doesn't tell us much. Saruman doesn't seem to have been much of a warrior, that was more Gandalf's area, which is fitting because he was much more of a traveller than Saruman and especially Radagast. Sauron was in some way more powerful than Gandalf and Saruman: always was, and remained so even in his waning strength without the Ring -- but he was a political tyrant, a mover of hosts, a god of heathens, a maker of evil things, a sorcerer and a necromancer, not a knight or champion. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

12-31-2002, 06:35 AM	#6
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7 Posts: 4,285	I think Ñólendil is pretty much right. Sauron's power was not physical, but he had a great power to dominate others and bend them under his will. I am not sure he would have endured long in a fight with Gandalf or Sarumann, if he should rely only on his physical strength. But at the time of the war of the Ring, he had gathered a huge number of servants and followers, some of them quite powerful, and he had his mighty fortress Barad-Dur in Mordor, and that's where he stayed. He did not risk to go out into war, but rather sent out his forces and the Ringwraiths. __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die.

01-02-2003, 07:06 AM	#7
ThorinOakenshield Sapling Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Florida, U.S.A. Posts: 14	Agree.... I agree with Sister Golden Hair. She's right, or I have no beard! __________________ "Expect the unexpected....oh, and cave trolls have really bad breath."

01-02-2003, 04:23 PM	#10
Sween im quite stupid Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Cockermouth Posts: 2,058	Sauron wasnt that much of a fighter he was a mover and shaker a good genral does not lead from the frount. everytime sauron ever came out to single combat he was defeated. Gandalf probably could wipe the floor with him in single combat but to get to him he would have to beat all the armys of mordor and break down the door of bar dur something even gandalf wasnt capable of __________________ Yeah god hes ok but i would rather be judged by a sheep than that idiot

01-02-2003, 10:41 PM	#11
Finmandos12 Elven Warrior Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Tampa Posts: 327	What do you all mean by "single combat"? If you mean fighting with swords, then the idea is irrelevant. In today's modern fantasy, it seems every powerful character fights hand-to-hand. Its not like that in Tolkien's vision. If you mean by "magic" (I hate to use that word, but I can't think of a better one) then Sauron had much more power. __________________ The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

01-07-2003, 03:14 PM	#12
Nilore Elven Warrior Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: I am every where and I am no where, I am everyone and I am no-one! HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! Posts: 319	Hmmmmmmm????????? I thought Gandalf and the Istari were Maia of lesser power? Is this true????????????????????????????????? __________________ UZG-BURGÛLU-OB GHASHANUM GHASHNUM-OB MOR ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Raise the Phial of Galadriel and let the Star Glass of Lothlorian cast out the Darkness of Shelob's Lair. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Naur an edraith ammen! Naur dan i ngaurholth! There was a roar and a crackle, and the tree above him burst into a leaf and bloom of blinding flame. The whole hill was crowned with a dazzling light! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ bhûl latu dûmp Accept Your DOOM ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ DIE MERE MORTALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh NO I AM A MERE MORTAL AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG GGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHH Stop the NUKE Stop the NUKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nilore writes last will and testament. Gets on knees And begs God for Mercy. Realizes He's already dead Flies up to heaven ( By the power of Red Bull) and lives happily ever after. THE END ( It's a MINI adventure) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

01-08-2003, 03:20 PM	#15
Andúril The Original Corruptor Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,881	I've always wondered about Olorin in "unrestricted power mode"; a one-on-one tangle with Sauron in that form would have been quite interesting...

01-08-2003, 08:37 PM	#16
Elfhelm Marshal of the Eastmark Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,412	I thought Gandalf won, didn't he? Just Kidding. I realize the ask was about a one-on-one, but I had to be a joker. Seriously, though, since both of them actually fight by leading armies, Gandalf did win because he had Frodo and Sam, and he had pity on his side and that saved Smeagol, which proved to be the crux of the matter. __________________ cya

01-08-2003, 09:08 PM	#17
Captain Stern Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 319	I disagree entirely with the oppinion that any of the istari were anywhere near the power level of Sauron, even if they were allowed to use all their powers. Why? Because of Saruman. After he became 'bad' he was no longer bound by the laws the Valar had placed on him and so used his powers to the full, totally unchecked. And, even after this, his power was, clearly, feeble compared to Sauron's, even though he was the greatest of the Istari. __________________ Then hate overcame Fëanor's fear, and he cursed Melkor and bade him be gone, saying 'Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!' And he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all dwellers in Eä. Last edited by Captain Stern : 01-08-2003 at 09:12 PM.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
What All Was Wrong with PJ's LOTR	Wally	Lord of the Rings Movies	425	08-14-2016 08:43 AM
Were the Nazgul free from Sauron for the most part of the Third Age?	Gordis	Middle Earth	141	07-09-2006 07:16 PM
The Lord of the Rings discussion: Chapter 2, The Shadow of the Past	jerseydevil	LOTR Discussion Project	57	04-07-2005 11:37 AM
Who is the Mouth of Sauron?	Maedhros	Lord of the Rings Books	11	09-15-2003 02:43 PM
The Rings Of Power	zavron	Middle Earth	14	01-08-2003 02:41 PM