Are they human?

diannah · 12-26-2002, 08:35 AM

What I'm curious about (and I've gotten some different views on this) is if Hobbits, Dwarves, Elves, Ents, Wizards and Orcs are all different strands of humans or if they're different species entirely,
also if distantly, if not directly related?

Artanis · 12-26-2002, 10:45 AM

Elves, Dwarves, Ents and Wizards are not human. The Wizards are Maiar, angelic spirits that were sent to Middle-Earth to assist the peoples there in the war against Sauron (Sauron is btw a Maia himself). The Dwarves were created by Aule, one of the Valar, the Powers of the World. Elves and Men were created by Eru, The One, who also created the Valar and the Maiar.

I don't know the origin of the Ents.

The Orcs were breeded by Melkor in mockery of Elves and Men, and are supposed to be a twisted breed of both, I believe.

Hobbits are related to Men way back in history, but we don't know in what way (or I don't know

)

Hope this helps

Gwaimir Windgem · 12-26-2002, 10:56 AM

The Ents were born from the vision of Yavanna to protect the kelvar (plants), I believe.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 12-26-2002, 01:09 PM

Elves and Men were identical in physical body except for the Elves being much fairer, and their bodies were more durable to wounds and pain, but they could not survive violent assaults upon their structures.

The greatest difference between Elves and Men was their spirits, and that Men were not bound to the world.

WallRocker · 12-26-2002, 02:14 PM

Dwarves were created by Aule.

Elves are the First Born, the vision of Illuvatar.

Ents were awakened at the same time as the Elves, but I don't know who created them.

Orcs were once Elves, captured by Melkor(Morgoth), and made into Orcs. Melkor could not create, he could only mock things that had already be created.

Wizards are members of the Istari, sent by the Valar to ME during the Third age to help in the war against Saroun. They took the form of grown humans. For more on the Istari, read the essay in 'Unfinshed tales'(just got that for Christmas

)

Radagast The Brown · 12-26-2002, 04:54 PM

I think that the ents were born by Manwe to protect the woods. Yavanna asked for Manwe's help and that's what he did.

Quote:

originally posted by WallRocker
Orcs were once Elves

Or men, as Artanis said in the beginning.

Ñólendil · 12-26-2002, 05:23 PM

It all depends on your definition of "human", I think. If by "human", you mean "Mannish", of-the-race-of-Men, the answer is certainly "no". But in a way, Elves, and Dwarves, and Orcs, and the five Wizards sent to Middle-earth in the Second and Third Ages, were "humane" -- biologically very similar to us, and to eachother, and actually as SGH pointed out, the Elves were biologically the same as we are.

WallRocker · 12-26-2002, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
Or men, as Artanis said in the beginning.

True.

Shadowfax · 12-28-2002, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by WallRocker
Melkor could not create, he could only mock things that had already be created.

If Melkor could not create anything, how could Aule create Dwarves? Melkor and Aule were both Valar, right? So how could one have the power to create and one not?

Gwaimir Windgem · 12-29-2002, 11:31 AM

When Aule created the Dwarves, at first they were just puppets, responding to his commands. Iluvatar gave them life, after Aule offered to destroy his creation in obedience to Him.

Shadowfax · 12-29-2002, 08:15 PM

Oh. Thanks for clearing that up for me!

#1GaMGeeGuRL · 03-08-2003, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
When Aule created the Dwarves, at first they were just puppets, responding to his commands. Iluvatar gave them life, after Aule offered to destroy his creation in obedience to Him.

Melkor couldn't create from scratch himself because of his hatred and loathing for all Eru made because he mocked it all. Orcs were twisted versions of Orcs, Goblins were twisted versions of Men I believe. But I don't think he was inhibited because he was just a Valar. Just because of his inner-darkness. I think the dwarves could think for themselves from the the begginning because they cowered when Aule was going to kill them. I think that was before Illuvatar's doing. Now whether they just had the potential or they were full-filling it I don't know.

durin's bane · 03-08-2003, 09:10 PM

Hobbits and Men are both human. And I think Orcs are half n' half. Elves are sort of like humans, but they are far more superior to mortals. Dwarves were created by a member of the Valar, I think, along with Elves. And the Ents are not human at all, and were created along with Elves. But that's all I know.

Gwaimir Windgem · 03-08-2003, 09:37 PM

Orcs and Goblins were the same thing.

Elves were created by Iluvatar, Dwarves by Aule, and Ents by Yavanna.

#1GaMGeeGuRL · 03-09-2003, 08:02 AM

I beg to differ Gwaimir. Why else would they have to cross orcs and goblins if they were the same thing?

markedel · 03-09-2003, 11:38 AM

The word and goblin are used interchangeably. I believe there is a not on it in the beginning of Lord of the Rings.

#1GaMGeeGuRL · 03-09-2003, 01:18 PM

Yeah so is warg and wolf but there are some differences between the two.

ArwenEvenstar · 03-09-2003, 01:22 PM

In the Hobbit Prof.JRRT uses goblins and in LOTR he uses orcs but I'm pretty sure that they're the same thing.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 03-09-2003, 01:43 PM

The Hobbit was written as a children's story, and "goblin" is a word that children have always been familiar with. The Lord of the Rings is an adult fantasy, and although the word "goblin" may appear in it sporadically, the word "Orc" became the more used term, and the overall replacement for "goblin." They are the same thing in Tolkien's mythology.

As for wolves and wargs, it is my understanding that the only difference between these two are that one was bred to ride.

durin's bane · 03-09-2003, 01:48 PM

Orcs and Goblins are the same thing, only since The Hobbit was aimed younger audiances, the word Goblin would be easier to understand. For Wargs and Wolves, I'm not sure. I used to think they were different, with Wargs being bigger and being able to talk and stuff, like a super-wolf.

12-26-2002, 10:45 AM	#2
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7 Posts: 4,285	Elves, Dwarves, Ents and Wizards are not human. The Wizards are Maiar, angelic spirits that were sent to Middle-Earth to assist the peoples there in the war against Sauron (Sauron is btw a Maia himself). The Dwarves were created by Aule, one of the Valar, the Powers of the World. Elves and Men were created by Eru, The One, who also created the Valar and the Maiar. I don't know the origin of the Ents. The Orcs were breeded by Melkor in mockery of Elves and Men, and are supposed to be a twisted breed of both, I believe. Hobbits are related to Men way back in history, but we don't know in what way (or I don't know ) Hope this helps __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die.

12-26-2002, 10:56 AM	#3
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	The Ents were born from the vision of Yavanna to protect the kelvar (plants), I believe. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

12-26-2002, 01:09 PM	#4
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	Elves and Men were identical in physical body except for the Elves being much fairer, and their bodies were more durable to wounds and pain, but they could not survive violent assaults upon their structures. The greatest difference between Elves and Men was their spirits, and that Men were not bound to the world. __________________ "Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

12-26-2002, 02:14 PM	#5
WallRocker Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: At the computer... Posts: 376	Dwarves were created by Aule. Elves are the First Born, the vision of Illuvatar. Ents were awakened at the same time as the Elves, but I don't know who created them. Orcs were once Elves, captured by Melkor(Morgoth), and made into Orcs. Melkor could not create, he could only mock things that had already be created. Wizards are members of the Istari, sent by the Valar to ME during the Third age to help in the war against Saroun. They took the form of grown humans. For more on the Istari, read the essay in 'Unfinshed tales'(just got that for Christmas ) __________________ Do one thing every day that scares you ~Anonymous~ <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><<>< <>< <>< <>< I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America And to the Republic for which it stands One nation UNDER GOD with liberty and justice for all Last edited by WallRocker : 12-26-2002 at 02:15 PM.

12-26-2002, 05:23 PM	#7
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	It all depends on your definition of "human", I think. If by "human", you mean "Mannish", of-the-race-of-Men, the answer is certainly "no". But in a way, Elves, and Dwarves, and Orcs, and the five Wizards sent to Middle-earth in the Second and Third Ages, were "humane" -- biologically very similar to us, and to eachother, and actually as SGH pointed out, the Elves were biologically the same as we are. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

12-26-2002, 08:35 AM	#1
diannah Hobbit Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: bethel, ME Posts: 43	Are they human? What I'm curious about (and I've gotten some different views on this) is if Hobbits, Dwarves, Elves, Ents, Wizards and Orcs are all different strands of humans or if they're different species entirely, also if distantly, if not directly related?

12-29-2002, 11:31 AM	#10
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	When Aule created the Dwarves, at first they were just puppets, responding to his commands. Iluvatar gave them life, after Aule offered to destroy his creation in obedience to Him. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

12-29-2002, 08:15 PM	#11
Shadowfax The Fleet-Footed Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: British Columbia Posts: 913	Oh. Thanks for clearing that up for me! __________________ Jesus saved me "To remain ignorant of things that happened before you were born is to remain a child" (Cicero, 106-43 B.C.) "Art is a lie which makes us realize the truth" (Picasso)

03-08-2003, 09:10 PM	#13
durin's bane Lady of Westernesse Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Canada (Help! Our parliament building is melting!) Posts: 761	Hobbits and Men are both human. And I think Orcs are half n' half. Elves are sort of like humans, but they are far more superior to mortals. Dwarves were created by a member of the Valar, I think, along with Elves. And the Ents are not human at all, and were created along with Elves. But that's all I know. __________________ Yada, yada, yada

03-08-2003, 09:37 PM	#14
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	Orcs and Goblins were the same thing. Elves were created by Iluvatar, Dwarves by Aule, and Ents by Yavanna. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

03-09-2003, 08:02 AM	#15
#1GaMGeeGuRL Enting Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: #3 Bagshot Row, Hobbiton, The Shire Posts: 71	I beg to differ Gwaimir. Why else would they have to cross orcs and goblins if they were the same thing? __________________ "When life gives you lemons, clone them and make SUPER LEMONS!!!!!" ~Professor Scudworth LONG LIVE THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE WEE SCARVIES! you'll have to excuse me, i'm not at my best i've been gone for a month i've been drunk since i left there so-called vacations will soon be my death i'm so sick from teh drink i need home for a rest we arrived in december and london was cold so we stayed in thebars along charing cross road we never saw nothin' but brass taps and oak kept a shine on the bar with the sleeves of our coats -chorus- euston station the train journey north in the buffet car we lurched back and forth past odd crooked dykes through yorkshire's green fields we were flung into dance as the train jigged and reeled you'll have to excuse me, i'm not at my best i've been gone for a month i've been drunk since i left there so-called vacations will soon be my death i'm so sick from teh drink i need home for a rest take me home.... by the light of the moon she'd drift through the streets a rare old perfume so seductive and sweet she'd tease us and flirt as the pubs all closed down then walk us on home and deny us a round -chorus- the gas heater's empty, it's damp as a tomb and the spirits we drank are not ghosts in the room i'm knackered again, come on sleep take me soon and don't lift up my head 'till the the twelve bells at noon you'll have to excuse me, i'm not at my best i've been gone for a month i've been drunk since i left there so-called vacations will soon be my death i'm so sick from teh drink i need home for a rest take me home....

03-09-2003, 11:38 AM	#16
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	The word and goblin are used interchangeably. I believe there is a not on it in the beginning of Lord of the Rings. __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

03-09-2003, 01:18 PM	#17
#1GaMGeeGuRL Enting Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: #3 Bagshot Row, Hobbiton, The Shire Posts: 71	Yeah so is warg and wolf but there are some differences between the two. __________________ "When life gives you lemons, clone them and make SUPER LEMONS!!!!!" ~Professor Scudworth LONG LIVE THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE WEE SCARVIES! you'll have to excuse me, i'm not at my best i've been gone for a month i've been drunk since i left there so-called vacations will soon be my death i'm so sick from teh drink i need home for a rest we arrived in december and london was cold so we stayed in thebars along charing cross road we never saw nothin' but brass taps and oak kept a shine on the bar with the sleeves of our coats -chorus- euston station the train journey north in the buffet car we lurched back and forth past odd crooked dykes through yorkshire's green fields we were flung into dance as the train jigged and reeled you'll have to excuse me, i'm not at my best i've been gone for a month i've been drunk since i left there so-called vacations will soon be my death i'm so sick from teh drink i need home for a rest take me home.... by the light of the moon she'd drift through the streets a rare old perfume so seductive and sweet she'd tease us and flirt as the pubs all closed down then walk us on home and deny us a round -chorus- the gas heater's empty, it's damp as a tomb and the spirits we drank are not ghosts in the room i'm knackered again, come on sleep take me soon and don't lift up my head 'till the the twelve bells at noon you'll have to excuse me, i'm not at my best i've been gone for a month i've been drunk since i left there so-called vacations will soon be my death i'm so sick from teh drink i need home for a rest take me home....

03-09-2003, 01:22 PM	#18
ArwenEvenstar Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: and why do YOU want to know? Posts: 685	In the Hobbit Prof.JRRT uses goblins and in LOTR he uses orcs but I'm pretty sure that they're the same thing. __________________ The only thing active about me is my imagination!

03-09-2003, 01:43 PM	#19
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	The Hobbit was written as a children's story, and "goblin" is a word that children have always been familiar with. The Lord of the Rings is an adult fantasy, and although the word "goblin" may appear in it sporadically, the word "Orc" became the more used term, and the overall replacement for "goblin." They are the same thing in Tolkien's mythology. As for wolves and wargs, it is my understanding that the only difference between these two are that one was bred to ride. __________________ "Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

03-09-2003, 01:48 PM	#20
durin's bane Lady of Westernesse Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Canada (Help! Our parliament building is melting!) Posts: 761	Orcs and Goblins are the same thing, only since The Hobbit was aimed younger audiances, the word Goblin would be easier to understand. For Wargs and Wolves, I'm not sure. I used to think they were different, with Wargs being bigger and being able to talk and stuff, like a super-wolf. __________________ Yada, yada, yada

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