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08-25-2001, 05:46 PM | #1 |
Elf Lord
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Ravens
Just how smart were those ravens at the Lonely Mountain? They seem o be a speaking creature, so what happened? Did the speaking kind die off, or did they get covered in paint and called themselves parrots?
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08-25-2001, 08:54 PM | #2 |
Elf Lord
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Not only parrots can talk! If you raise a crow from a hatchling, you can teach them to "speak" as well...what I am unsure about, is the difference between a crow and a raven...if there is one.
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08-25-2001, 10:05 PM | #3 |
Elf Lord
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Nevermore do they do that.
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08-25-2001, 10:14 PM | #4 |
Elf Lord
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It seems like all the Kelvar declined over the Ages, in 'humane comprehension'. For I've noticed most beasts in Tolkien's legendarium seem to be extra intelligent.
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08-26-2001, 08:53 PM | #5 |
Enting
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Like that fox in LOTR. I've always liked that part, kind of a farewell to the style of The Hobbit, to the darker style of LOTR.
--Erewë
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"Waaaaiiiit, I haven't read Tolkien in over a week!" --Tom Servo "Hey! Look! There he goes! Oh, it's just a crumby Balrog" --Crow T Robot "I'll just see if Bombadil has a place to crash" --Pearl Forrester "Put a sock in it, Legolas" --Mike Nelson "Hey Gollum. Whats up man?" --Tom Servo |
08-26-2001, 09:01 PM | #6 |
Elven Warrior
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I think the first part of FOTR is like the Hobbit. The others aren't, though.
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08-26-2001, 09:05 PM | #7 |
Elf Lord
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Thus making the Hobbit superior.
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08-27-2001, 01:31 AM | #8 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
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08-27-2001, 01:34 AM | #9 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
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08-27-2001, 10:06 AM | #10 |
Elf Lord
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I happen to like the Hobbit the best out of all Tolkien's works (though I have yet to read the Silmarrilion) and I'd be happy to debate that with you some other time. Now do ravens really talk? I know several birds can do that (well not really talk but mimic us or do you mean the sounds that they make?).
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08-27-2001, 12:24 PM | #11 |
Elf Lord
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Of course Ravens can talk. Or they probably can. I hear there are some in Baltimore that play football.
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08-27-2001, 01:19 PM | #12 |
Elven Warrior
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I HATE the Ravens!I HATE THE RAVENS!!!!
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08-27-2001, 09:14 PM | #13 |
Elf Lord
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Crows can talk, or "mimic" like other bird species. As I said earlier, I am unsure if ravens and crows are the same...they may be cousins.
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08-27-2001, 11:38 PM | #14 |
Hobbit
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Nevermore.
The ravens are obviously similar to the Eagles in Tolkien's works. in fact, given that Aragorn warns the hobbits that unfriendly eyes could be in birds' heads, and Saurman, et al use crows, it is obvious that all animals in Middle Earth had some modicum of intellegence. The ravens seemed to be one of the few species that could not only have itellegent conversation (the thrush, Beorn's horses, and Bombadil's ponies could understand Westron), but be able to learn the language of the free peoples. (Another example would be the Eagles.)
This all would argue that the Ravens were about as intellegent as the Eagles, but not quite as, shall we say, concerned with their own affairs. It is obvious from the Hobbit that the Raven Thorin talks to has misgivings about communicating with Dain of the Iron Hills, but he doesn't complain. An eagle in a similar situation would probably bite your head off if he didn't think your plan was the best. (Unless you happened to be Radagast (Dr. Dolittle?) or Gandalf.) |
08-28-2001, 04:09 PM | #15 | |
Elf Lord
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Ravens and Crows if related are certainly not the same in 'Tolkien's world'.
Crows could talk too. They had their own language, which the Dwarves could understand. Cf. (I think it was) Balin's words in The Hobbit, while climbing the Lonely Mountain. Also cf. the last paragraph of Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië: Quote:
About the difference between the Ravens and Eagles, I think you're right. The eagles were nobler. Gwaihir became King of all Birds. Dolittle, lol! You know, Radagast seems strange to me. He's supposed to be a Maia of Yavanna, and the text that says this certainly is congruent with what we hear of him in the Lord of the Rings, but (apparently) to Christopher Tolkien and certainly to me he seems rather to be of the people Oromë, the Vala whom the Blue Wizards are supposed to be devoted to. And as for the Blue Wizards, if they're of Oromë, why are they clad in sea blue? Saruman as White makes sense on different levels, even aside from being head of the order and all that (cf. his conversation with Gandalf in Council of Elrond), white might remind one of the smooth, white stone or the glitter of jewels that look fair in the hand. For Gandalf it was as a white flame or light (and Gandalf was devoted to Manwë and Varda). As Grey, it was ash-grey, which is very fitting. Radagast is clad in earthen brown, which fits one of the people of Yavanna. But why, I ask you, would Maiar devoted to Oromë the Hunter, Oromë the King Forester, Lord of Forests, be clad in sea blue? I realize the colours seem to be signs of office, but for the other three Wizards they also seem to reflect their talents and the Valar they serve. What has Oromë got to do with the sea? [/rant]
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10-13-2001, 03:08 PM | #16 |
Hobbit
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I don't know what Tolkien thought but in real life Ravens and Crows are different species, but are closely related. Ravens are larger than Crows and it is likely that Ravens are the most intelligent of all birds.
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10-16-2001, 06:31 PM | #17 |
The Insufferable
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I believe I saw something on the blue coloration somewhere. I'll look it up.
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