Elrond at the War of Wrath

[ecthelion]

From the silmarillion:

Of the march of the host of the Valar to the north of Middle-earth little is said in any tale; for among them went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they only learned long afterwards from their kinsfolk in Aman.

And from LOTR:

I remember well the splendour of their lances. It recalled to me the glory of the Elder Days, and the hosts of Beleriand, so many great princes and captains were assembled. And yet not so many nor so fair, as when Thangorodrim was broken, and the elves deemed that evil was ended forever and it was not so.

Was he there? Or not?

[Valandil]

I would guess that he - and the other Elves of Beleriand - saw them arrive and marvelled at them, but did not advance with them to the battle.

[ecthelion]

Seems weird, that he would see the army but not see the war?

Anyway I don't exactly have a clear idea of what that phrase in the Sil means. Did no one of the elves of Beleriand or the havens join the host of the Valar? Or those that joined immediately left? I'm not fully convinced...

[Galin]

If we use the dates from The Tale of Years anyway (War of the Jewels), Elrond would have been only thirteen years old at the coming of the host of the West (the revised dates for the last war of the Elder Days were given at 545-587).

In The Line of Elros it was said that Elros was born 58 years before the SA began, which agrees with these revised dates for the birth of Elros and Elrond (FA 532), and the end of the FA in 590.

[Elf of cave]

Originally Posted by Galin

If we use the dates from The Tale of Years anyway (War of the Jewels), Elrond would have been only thirteen years old at the coming of the host of the West (the revised dates for the last war of the Elder Days were given at 545-587).

In The Line of Elros it was said that Elros was born 58 years before the SA began, which agrees with these revised dates for the birth of Elros and Elrond (FA 532), and the end of the FA in 590.

But as you point out the War of Wrath lasted 43 years. We know Elves reach their maturity at the age of 50, so if Elros and Elrond grew as normal Elves they would have reached maturity in FA 582 which gives them 5 years to fight in the War, but being Peredhil they might have reached maturity even earlier – if they matured as Men does they could have fought almost the entire war. Besides, we know Huor joined his first war party at the age of 13 (or 14), so having Elros and Elrond join a war at the age of 13 may not be as unlikely as one might think.

Since we don’t really know much about Elros and Elrond after the Sack of Sirion (what were they doing, were they living with Gil-galad or Maglor?), the question of whether they fought in the war really comes down to these:

1) did Elros and Elrond fight with the Men of Beleriand, who we know fought for the host of the Valar?

2) did the Elves of Middle-earth fight alongside the Host of the Valar?

To answer the first question, then yes they may well have. What supports this is the fact that the Men accepted Elros as their first king. In times like these the leaders of people had to prove that they were great warriors and commanders or they would loose their respect and support among their people (an example is how the lame Brandir lost the favour of the Folk of Brethil when Túrin, a great warrior, arrived). Neither do I believe the battle-hardened Men who had fought long and hard in the War of Wrath would simply accept an upstart Half-elf – no matter his linage – who had never seen battle, just because the Valar told them to. Elros would have had to prove himself worthy.

The second question is much more complicated, and is purely based on my opinion and presumptions. I believe the Elves of Middle-earth did partake in the War of Wrath, and the reasons are these:

- they, more than any other (except Húrin and his family), suffered under Morgoth’s rule, and they would not have stood idly by when there was a chance to have revenge. And I think even had the the Valar forbidden them to join in they would have simply fought on their own, taking advantage of the fact that Morgoth would have been busy fighting the main host, and doing as much damage to his forces whenever and wherever they could.

- yes it all sounds so grand with the coming of the mighty Host of the Valar, but was it really? I mean probably around 90% of the Elven Host would have been born in the Bliss of Valinor, and would have never seen an orc nor wielded a weapon in battle. We know that no matter how much you train it can never really compare you to what you will face once in battle – the horror of it – and soldiers often freezes up. I think the Host of the Valar would have been complete idiots not to draw on the experience of the Elves of Middle-earth, who had fought the enemy for centuries and have invaluable knowledge of the enemy’s strengths and weaknesses concerning equipment, fighting style(s), tactics etc. And the Host would have been complete idiots not to make use of some experienced, battle-hardened warriors.

- why would the Men of Beleriand fight in the war and not the Elves?


So to return to the original question, then my answer would be: yes, Elrond did somehow partake in the War of the Wrath; not only because he had the time and opportunity, but also because we know Elrond commanded the army Gil-galad sent to aid Eregion, but would he send someone who had never fought in a battle? If Elrond had not proved himself a capable warrior and commander in battle, Gil-galad, knowing the danger of placing someone in charge with no experience, could have found a better suited commander to lead the army. And the only battle Elrond could have had the chance to gain experience and prove himself was in the War of Wrath.

[Valandil]

Hi Elf of Cave - and welcome to Entmoot!

Are you sure though, that the men of Beleriand fought with the Army of Valinor? I didn't think they did. I thought the gift of Numenor was for previously standing by the Elves of Beleriand and fighting with them against the forces of Morgoth.

As I read the pertinent passages, the image I get is that this grand army arrives in what is basically the shambles of a refuge camp, tells the folks living there to 'stand aside' and let them handle it - then marches north to do their job. The message to the Elves (and Men - I thought) of Beleriand was probably - "You've done all you can, now leave it to us."

What passages indicate to you that Men fought with the Host of the Valar?

[Elf of cave]

Thank you - glad to be here

I don't have my books with me at the moment but I'm pretty sure it says in the Silmarillion, that the Three Houses of Men fought alongside the Valar while Men out of the east fought with Morgoth (and were for the most part destroyed).

CÃ*rdan (and Gil-galad) had lived on Balar since FA 473 I very much doubt they spend so many years living in a refuge camp, sitting idly by the fire and picking their noses saying "well, too bad, let's just sit here and die". Until the Host of the Valar arrived, they would have had no other choice than to rebuild their military strength as much as possible to defend themselves.

As I read the pertinent passages, the image I get is that this grand army arrives in what is basically the shambles of a refuge camp, tells the folks living there to 'stand aside' and let them handle it - then marches north to do their job. The message to the Elves (and Men - I thought) of Beleriand was probably - "You've done all you can, now leave it to us."

Yeah, Tolkien make it sound like a walk in the park, but the war lasted for more that 40 years - it was not a walk in the park. The only reason the Host of the Valar was not destroyed upon arrival was most likely due to their great number and the presence of Valar and Maiar.

[Varnafindë]

Do we know exactly how long Elrond and Elros lived with Maglor?

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Men fought on both sides of this war, as they ever have and seemingly ever shall.

The Balrogs were destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth; and the uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind. Few remained to trouble the world for long years after. And such few as were left of the three houses of the Elf-friends, Fathers of Men, fought upon the part of the Valar; and they were avenged in those days for Baragund and Barahir, Galdor and Gundor, Huor and Húrin, and many others of their lords. But a great part of the sons of Men, whether of the people of Uldor or others new-come out of the east, marched with the Enemy; and the Elves do not forget it.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Elf of cave

But as you point out the War of Wrath lasted 43 years. We know Elves reach their maturity at the age of 50, so if Elros and Elrond grew as normal Elves they would have reached maturity in FA 582 which gives them 5 years to fight in the War, but being Peredhil they might have reached maturity even earlier – if they matured as Men does they could have fought almost the entire war. Besides, we know Huor joined his first war party at the age of 13 (or 14), so having Elros and Elrond join a war at the age of 13 may not be as unlikely as one might think.

Possible though it may be, I do not think it is likely any Elf would let Elrond or his brother enter battle before they reached the Elf-reckoned age of maturity. They were half-human, but raised among Elves, to Elven standards. If they stayed under Maedhros' and Maglor's care until the end of the War, I'm pretty sure neither would even have been allowed to partake in fighting.

Neither do I believe the battle-hardened Men who had fought long and hard in the War of Wrath would simply accept an upstart Half-elf – no matter his linage – who had never seen battle, just because the Valar told them to. Elros would have had to prove himself worthy.

Hm, I would say Elros' line of descent would carry greater weight than his actual battle experience. He is after all the grandson of Tuor, son of Huor, from a family of rulers that was really quite respected. [EDIT: AND descended through Elwing from Beren. Elros was (barring Elrond) about the only rightful heir left to two Houses of the Edain.] His worth in battle does not necessarily have to enter into things, especially not since it would have been peace-time when Men embarked for Numenor. War was not thought of at that time, thus they would not have needed a war-leader.

yes it all sounds so grand with the coming of the mighty Host of the Valar, but was it really? I mean probably around 90% of the Elven Host would have been born in the Bliss of Valinor, and would have never seen an orc nor wielded a weapon in battle. We know that no matter how much you train it can never really compare you to what you will face once in battle – the horror of it – and soldiers often freezes up.

This does not seem to have been the case for the Valinorean Elves. When Fëanor and the Noldor first arrived on the Eastern shores, they had never laid eyes on an orc either. They had swords and armour, yes, but very little battle experience, yet they gave Morgoth's army a run for their money. Valinorean Elves, it seems, scoff at the necessity of fighting experience.

I think the Host of the Valar would have been complete idiots not to draw on the experience of the Elves of Middle-earth, who had fought the enemy for centuries and have invaluable knowledge of the enemy’s strengths and weaknesses concerning equipment, fighting style(s), tactics etc.

Not to mention knowledge of the lay of the land, which I would rank as the primary reason to include Middle-earth warriors into the Valinorean armies. You can't march on Thangorodrim if you don't know where the blazes it is situated!

Originally Posted by Valandil

Are you sure though, that the men of Beleriand fought with the Army of Valinor? I didn't think they did. I thought the gift of Numenor was for previously standing by the Elves of Beleriand and fighting with them against the forces of Morgoth.

It would surprise me greatly if the Men of Beleriand just stood by and watched. I don't have my books handy, but I'm pretty sure they did their part.

As I read the pertinent passages, the image I get is that this grand army arrives in what is basically the shambles of a refuge camp, tells the folks living there to 'stand aside' and let them handle it - then marches north to do their job. The message to the Elves (and Men - I thought) of Beleriand was probably - "You've done all you can, now leave it to us."

The Island of Balar was already inhabited before Cirdan was forced to retreat to it. It may have been somewhat more crowded at the end, but I wouldn't call it a refuge camp in the sense of today's camps. There should still have been small pockets of resistance dotting Beleriand too, those Men and Elves would have to live somewhere too. It may have been only temporary homes, and I bet their armour had a few untreated dinks and dents when compared to the shiny Valinorean outfits, but I doubt they would have been told to stand aside.

The Valar knew Morgoth pretty well, and they no doubt had realised that the first time they fought Morgoth, they hadn't succeeded in rooting out the hidden depths of his fortress. This time he probably even have more forces ready. (He did, the dragons.) So I'm pretty sure the Valinorean forces took what warriors they could get to get the job done properly this time.

[Elf of cave]

Possible though it may be, I do not think it is likely any Elf would let Elrond or his brother enter battle before they reached the Elf-reckoned age of maturity. They were half-human, but raised among Elves, to Elven standards. If they stayed under Maedhros' and Maglor's care until the end of the War, I'm pretty sure neither would even have been allowed to partake in fighting.

But we don't know how long Elrond and Elros stayed with Maglor. Upon reaching their maturity they might as well have left the Fëanorians and joined one of the still free groups of Edain. And if they stayed with Maglor until the end of the war you have to keep in mind that the Fëanorians lived in the wilderness (surrounded by the enemy) – a situation in which it would have been almost impossible to shield off Elros and Elros from partaking in fights with the enemy; not only would it have been almost impossible it would have been extremely dangerous.

Hm, I would say Elros' line of descent would carry greater weight than his actual battle experience. He is after all the grandson of Tuor, son of Huor, from a family of rulers that was really quite respected. [EDIT: AND descended through Elwing from Beren. Elros was (barring Elrond) about the only rightful heir left to two Houses of the Edain.] His worth in battle does not necessarily have to enter into things, especially not since it would have been peace-time when Men embarked for Numenor. War was not thought of at that time, thus they would not have needed a war-leader.

In a society that reflects the one we know from Medieval times (and Antiquity), it doesn't matter if it is a time of peace. The leaders are first and foremost military leaders. Try to imagine a people who have spent most of their lives at war, and during that time a few men have set themselves aside as great warriors and outstanding leaders which have earned them a respect from their fellow warriors that cannot be achieved elsewhere. Now Imagine the war comes to an end and the people are told they will be given a new kingdom – who do you think will have the peoples support: a young Half-Elf, of great linage, but who had never fought in a battle and who they don’t know? Or a Man of lesser linage but who the people know and respect as a great warrior and leader? If we look at our own history the answer is clear. If a general gained the support of the people he became more powerful than the King – a dangerous situation which often led to internal conflict and civil war (especially in the Roman Empire). A King must have the full support of his army (and Númenor would have maintained an army. Morgoth may have been defeated but there were still many wild Men, and Men of the East, which had lived under Morgoth's shadow (not to forget those that had escaped from the host of the Valar like Sauron, Balrogs, Orcs etc.), and the only way to gain that is to prove himself a capable warrior and commander.

This does not seem to have been the case for the Valinorean Elves. When Fëanor and the Noldor first arrived on the Eastern shores, they had never laid eyes on an orc either. They had swords and armour, yes, but very little battle experience, yet they gave Morgoth's army a run for their money. Valinorean Elves, it seems, scoff at the necessity of fighting experience.

Yes, but remember that until then Morgoth’s forces had only fought against the Dwarves, the Sindar and Nandor of Beleriand. The Nandor were lightly armed. The Dwarves were well-armed, and made weapons and armour for the Sindar. When the Fëanorians arrives they come equipped with the newest technology in armour and weapons – and a hatred of Morgoth greater than anything else. As we know from our own history two war faring nations always develop their war-technology always develops in accordance with each other, so Morgoth’s forces would have had weapons and armour suited for battle against the Dwarves, the Sindar and Nandor, but these would have been almost useless against the new technology the Noldor brought with them, not to forget the use of cavalry (which seems to have come with the Fëanorians). And in that battle Morgoth was careless; desiring only to drive the Noldor out as quickly as possible and completely underestimated them.

When the Host of the Valar arrived their armour and weapon design would most likely not have changed much from what the Noldor first brought (while the technology of both the Noldor and Morgoths forces would have continued to evolve through the First Age), so the Host of the West may not have had the advantage of technology the exiled Noldor had upon arrival. And Morgoth would most likely have been more careful battling this new enemy, not wanting to make the same mistake twice – and this time his forces did not have the advantage of sheer size.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I wonder whether the twins' decision to live man-wise or elf-wise was already made by this time. If Elros had already decided to live as a Man, then it is likely that he was already a leader of his people when the War of Wrath commenced, even if he was still advised (or even temporarily outranked) by some of his elders. By the end of that war, he could have greatly distinguished himself among Men.

Nevertheless, it was his lineage that gave him the initial leg-up. He was the heir.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Elf of cave

But we don't know how long Elrond and Elros stayed with Maglor. Upon reaching their maturity they might as well have left the Fëanorians and joined one of the still free groups of Edain.

In the event of the twins staying with the Fëanoreans, I don't think they would be allowed or were even capable of joining the Edain. Maedhros and Maglor seemed to have adopted the twins in some way, so I can't really imagine them letting the two boys join the fighting, regardless whether it would be along Elves or Men. While the Fëanoreans welcomed and employed Men in their troups in earlier days, I don't think they easily had contact with them when they were on the run themselves. Travel and/or communication between isolated groups would have been scarce, IMO, especially if all had to move stealthy and repeatedly. It may be well possible that neither race trusted each other a lot at the time.

And if they stayed with Maglor until the end of the war you have to keep in mind that the Fëanorians lived in the wilderness (surrounded by the enemy) – a situation in which it would have been almost impossible to shield off Elros and Elros from partaking in fights with the enemy; not only would it have been almost impossible it would have been extremely dangerous.

No doubt the Fëanoreans also had women and few children with them. The non-fighting population didn't just disappear when the Elven realms were broken up. Even if the Fëanoreans were forced to move from place to place, there would always have been a part of that group that would have been held safe and away from fighting, as much as possible.

Suppose Elrond and Elros were mature enough to have been instructed in fighting, then (purely speculating here) Maedhros and Maglor may still have kept them away from any battle by making them responsible for escorting and guiding the non-combattants to safety while the rest of the warriors engaged the enemy. This way the twins may not have partaken in a single battle.

In a society that reflects the one we know from Medieval times (and Antiquity), it doesn't matter if it is a time of peace. The leaders are first and foremost military leaders. Try to imagine a people who have spent most of their lives at war, and during that time a few men have set themselves aside as great warriors and outstanding leaders which have earned them a respect from their fellow warriors that cannot be achieved elsewhere. Now Imagine the war comes to an end and the people are told they will be given a new kingdom – who do you think will have the peoples support: a young Half-Elf, of great linage, but who had never fought in a battle and who they don’t know? Or a Man of lesser linage but who the people know and respect as a great warrior and leader? If we look at our own history the answer is clear. If a general gained the support of the people he became more powerful than the King – a dangerous situation which often led to internal conflict and civil war (especially in the Roman Empire). A King must have the full support of his army (and Númenor would have maintained an army. Morgoth may have been defeated but there were still many wild Men, and Men of the East, which had lived under Morgoth's shadow (not to forget those that had escaped from the host of the Valar like Sauron, Balrogs, Orcs etc.), and the only way to gain that is to prove himself a capable warrior and commander.

History aside, these are a lot of assumptions about the Edain of which -for this particalur time frame- we have but very little information how they thought and of what kind their leaders were. Also, in actual history we do not have divine beings offering up beautiful continents as rewards. No one could have attacked the Edain on their island, even if they wanted to. The big bad was vanquished, and what was left of his forces didn't seem to possess much knowledge of sea-warfare. The sea was then after all, the uncontested domain of Ulmo. Morgoth's forces did not venture there, which may have been an argument in giving the Edain Numenor. The Edain were as safe on their island as they could ever be. It took them several generations too, if I'm not mistaken, before they were capable of seeking out other shores. So the fact that is was peace-time does have a sufficient influence here in my opinion.

I maintain Elros' lineage was of greater weight, because Tolkien himself always seemed to put lineage forward in matters of succession. Those of the right lineage were not always chosen. In the case of Arvedui, Gondor (still in war-time) did indeed opt for a battle-proven warrior of their own. But according to Malbeth's prophesy, Arvedui would eventually have been the better choice.