Scandinavia - Economy and Politics

[Coffeehouse]

Scandinavia - Economy and Politics

Why have I made this thread? For debate=)

As a Norwegian who has lived over half his life outside of Norway I have come to have a strange relationship with Scandinavia, and I have numerous thoughts about it which I would like to air here..

Here you can learn a bit about a corner in the world which you probably rarely hear about!

Why here, well because Entmoot is the only forum I use, and doing this on any of the University fora here at home would lead to insights from.. other Norwegian students, and that wouldn't give me any fresh insight=)

So if you ever wondered about anything Scandinavian, have critical comments (they are very welcome) about anything from say... Denmark's strict immigration policy, Sweden staying out of NATO, Norway staying out of the EU, the Scandinavian welfare system, high taxes, high prices, cold winters, strange languages, prolific travelling abroad, history and anything else between heaven and earth.. here's the place=)

So.. what is Scandinavia?

First.. a few facts and some history

According to Wiki:
"Scandinavia is a historical and geographical region in northern Europe that includes the Scandinavian Peninsula. It consists of the kingdoms of Norway, Sweden, and Denmark; some authorities also include Finland and some might even include Iceland."

Languages (Wiki):
"The North Germanic languages of Scandinavia are traditionally divided into an East Scandinavian branch (Danish and Swedish) and a West Scandinavian branch (Norwegian, Icelandic, and Faroese), but because of changes appearing in the languages since 1600, the East Scandinavian and West Scandinavian branches are now usually reconfigured into Insular Scandinavian (ö-nordisk/ø-nordisk) featuring (Icelandic and Faroese) and Continental Scandinavian (Skandinavisk), comprising Danish, Norwegian and Swedish. The modern division is based on the degree of mutual comprehensibility between the languages in the two branches."

History (Wiki):
"During a period of Christianization and state formation in the 10th-13th centuries, three consolidated kingdoms emerged in Scandinavia:

Denmark, forged from the Lands of Denmark (including Jutland, Zealand and Scania (Skåneland) on the Scandinavian Peninsula. The island Gotland in modern-day Sweden was initially also part of the Danish realm.)
Sweden, forged from the Lands of Sweden on the Scandinavian Peninsula (excluding the provinces Bohuslän, Härjedalen, Jämtland and Idre & Särna, Halland, Blekinge and Scania of modern-day Sweden)
Norway (including Bohuslän, Härjedalen, Jämtland and Idre & Särna on the Scandinavian Peninsula, and the islands Iceland, Greenland, Faroe Islands, Shetland, the Orkneys, Isle of Man and the Hebrides.)"

"The three Scandinavian kingdoms were united in 1397 in the Kalmar Union by Queen Margrete I of Denmark. Sweden left the union in 1523 under King Gustav Vasa. In the aftermath of Sweden's secession from the Kalmar Union, civil war broke out in Denmark and Norway. The Protestant Reformation followed. When things had settled down, the Norwegian Privy Council was abolished—it assembled for the last time in 1537. A personal union, entered into by the kingdoms of Denmark and Norway in 1536, lasted until 1814. Three sovereign successor states have subsequently emerged from this unequal union: Denmark, Norway and Iceland."

"The Dano-Norwegian union was formally dissolved at the 1814 Treaty of Kiel. The territory of Norway proper was ceded to the King of Sweden, but Norway's overseas possessions were kept by Denmark. However, widespread Norwegian resistance to the prospect of a union with Sweden induced the governor of Norway, crown prince Christian Frederick (later Christian VIII of Denmark), to call a constituent assembly at Eidsvoll in April 1814. The assembly drew up a liberal constitution and elected him to the throne of Norway. Following a Swedish invasion during the summer, the peace conditions specified that king Christian Frederik had to resign, but Norway was to keep its independence and its constitution within a personal union with Sweden. Christian Frederik formally abdicated on August 10 1814 and returned to Denmark. The parliament Storting elected king Charles XIII of Sweden as king of Norway on November 4.

The union between Sweden and Norway was dissolved in 1905, after which Prince Charles of Denmark was elected king of Norway under the name of Haakon VII."

A bit about each country:

Denmark:


"Denmark is a constitutional monarchy with a parliamentary system of government. Denmark has a state-level government and local governments in 98 municipalities. Denmark has been a member of the European Union (formerly European Economic Community) since 1973, although it has not joined the Eurozone, a currency union among the European Union member states that have adopted the euro as their sole official currency. Denmark is a founding member of NATO."

"Denmark, with a free market capitalist economy, and a large welfare state, ranks according to one measure as having the world's highest level of income equality. From 2006 to 2008, surveys ranked Denmark as "the happiest place in the world," based on standards of health, welfare, and education. The 2008 Global Peace Index survey ranks Denmark as the second most peaceful country in the world, after Iceland. Denmark was also ranked as the least corrupt country in the world in the 2008 Corruption Perceptions Index, sharing a top position with Sweden and New Zealand."

"Population
- 1 January 2009 estimate 5,511,451
GDP (PPP) 2008 estimate
- Total $203.519 billion[1] (49th)
- Per capita $38,207[1] (IMF) (14th)"


Sweden:


"Sweden is a constitutional monarchy with a parliamentary system of government and a highly developed economy. It ranks first in the world in The Economist's Democracy Index and 7th in the United Nation's Human Development Index. Sweden has been a member of the European Union since 1 January 1995.

Sweden emerged as an independent and unified country during the Middle Ages. It received a modern centralized administration beginning with King Gustav Vasa in the 16th century. In the 17th century the country expanded its territories to form the Swedish empire. Most of the conquered territories outside the Scandinavian Peninsula were lost during the 18th and 19th centuries. The eastern half of Sweden, present-day Finland, was lost to Russia in 1809. The last war in which Sweden was directly involved was in 1814, when Sweden by military means forced Norway into a personal union with Sweden, a union which lasted until 1905.

Since 1814, Sweden has been at peace, adopting a non-aligned foreign policy in peacetime and neutrality in wartime."

"Population
- 2008 census 9,234,2094
GDP (PPP) 2008 estimate
- Total $335.405 billion[4] (30th)
- Per capita $37,525[4] (IMF) (16th)"


Norway:


"Norway, officially the Kingdom of Norway, is a constitutional monarchy in Northern Europe that occupies the western portion of the Scandinavian Peninsula.

Since World War II Norway has experienced rapid economic growth, and is now amongst the wealthiest countries in the world.[5][6][7] Norway is the world's fourth largest oil exporter[8] and the petroleum industry accounts for around a quarter of GDP.[9]

Norway also has rich resources of gas fields, hydropower, fish, forests, and minerals. Norway was the second largest exporter of seafood (in value, after China) in 2006.[10] Other main industries include food processing, shipbuilding, metals, chemicals, mining, fishing and pulp and paper products. Norway has a Scandinavian welfare model and the largest capital reserve per capita of any nation.

Norway was ranked highest of all countries in human development from 2001 to 2006, and shares first place with Iceland from 2007 to 2008.[11] It was also rated the most peaceful country in the world in a 2007 survey by Global Peace Index.[12] It is a founding member of NATO."

"Population
- 2009 estimate 4,805,437 (as of January 29, 2009) (115th)
GDP (PPP) 2008 estimate
- Total $259.049 billion[2] (43rd)
- Per capita $55,198[2] (IMF) (2nd)"

A map of Scandinavia



That's that.. a some information about Scandinavia in case you didn't know or ever wondered=)

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Now to the issue I'd like to raise!

I came across an article in the Economist, http://www.economist.com/displaystor...ry_id=12970769, titled "Norway and the Environment - Binge and Purge", which looked at two contradictions in terms of our environmental politics.

My question, what should a oil- and gas-exporting nation like Norway do to become greener. Do we shift away from this economic activity? What do we then do.. invest billions in wave- and windpower?
Norway looks to have the 'cleanest' oil and gas extraction in the world, CO2 emissions per barrel produces. It provides about 20 percent of all gas in Europe, while Russia provides most of the rest of that, and Russia has a whole lot dirtier production. Isn't it an argument then that it is better for Norway to continue to develop cleaner technologies than simply stop producing oil and gas? If we did, who would take over the market? Russia.

Then there's the question of alternative energy. Sweden has nuclear power plants. Norway doesn't. Should we invest in that?

That's the first issue I'd like to raise in this thread. Feel free to add news articles, comments, debate points, fun facts and whatever to this thread!

[The Gaffer]

I went to Norway on my honeymoon, and was impressed. Here's a country about the same size as Scotland population-wise, with even more inaccessible terrain and worse climate, yet clearly people have a higher standard of living.

Norway, unlike every other country in the world, has not pished its mineral wealth up against the wall. It has invested it. Can't recall the name of the fund, I'm sure you know CH. This is far more enlightened than the standard process of maxing out profits today and lining the pockets of the few. In the UK's case, we used the tax money to pay social security for the people who had been made redundant by the closure of all other industries. The rest went straight into overseas corporations.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

I went to Norway on my honeymoon, and was impressed.

Really? Where did you go?

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Here's a country about the same size as Scotland population-wise, with even more inaccessible terrain and worse climate, yet clearly people have a higher standard of living.

Lol I had to show this post to a friend of mine Maybe it's the cold winters that scares off many people, but really we have quite nice weather here in Norway if you think about the high latitude we're at. Even high up in the northern part the summers can be quite comfortable because of the warm currents flowing from the Gulf of Mexico.

Contrary to common belief about this northerly place, we have four very distinct seasons:

Autumn


Winter


Spring


Summer

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Norway, unlike every other country in the world, has not pished its mineral wealth up against the wall. It has invested it. Can't recall the name of the fund, I'm sure you know CH. This is far more enlightened than the standard process of maxing out profits today and lining the pockets of the few. In the UK's case, we used the tax money to pay social security for the people who had been made redundant by the closure of all other industries. The rest went straight into overseas corporations.

I believe your referring to the Government Pension Fund, or Oil Fund as we also call it. Most of the revenue that Norway earns through oil and gas export is channelled into this fund (the remained is re-invested).

Norway was fortunate in its timing when we discovered gas and oil reserves in the North Sea because we were already well on our way in developing a quite coherent and well-structured welfare state (albeit in its infancy), and we were a democracy unlike most nations hit by the natural resource curse.

[The Gaffer]

Well, we got the same curse at the same time, and pished it up against the wall, democracy notwithstanding. We had a monetarist "rob the poor to feed the rich" government at the time. We are now seeing precisely how good a job of stewardship of the economy these *******s do when given free reign.

I loved it. We stayed in Bergen and Flam (Sognefjord) for a week. In fact, here's a pic from the net of where we stayed: the hytte on the right.

http://midlifemadness.files.wordpres...rds-flam-1.jpg

This was the view out of the window:

http://z.about.com/d/cruises/1/0/s/L..._Norway_02.JPG

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Well, we got the same curse at the same time, and pished it up against the wall, democracy notwithstanding. We had a monetarist "rob the poor to feed the rich" government at the time. We are now seeing precisely how good a job of stewardship of the economy these *******s do when given free reign.

Is it so? I have to admit I did not know Scotland was so heavily involved in the petroleum industry, though admittedly Norway and the British isles share about 50-50 of the oil in the North Sea along our sea border. Do you share your industry with the English under some common United Kingdom economic area or do you have a separate one?
I'm very interested in hearing more about this!

In any case I really should read more about Scotland. Of all the people in the world I find Scots to be the most similar to Norwegians. I can't put my finger on it
You know when Scotland is in football competitions, and not playing Norway, everyone I know seem to root for them Especially if it's against England It's that little brother mentality Sweden and Denmark have shoved down our throats I think

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

I loved it. We stayed in Bergen and Flam (Sognefjord) for a week. In fact, here's a pic from the net of where we stayed: the hytte on the right.

Brilliant! Half my family is from the Bergen-area, and my grandfather's family lived on a steep-sloped mountainside that runs right into the water such as is depicted on that second photography The roads are still too narrow (as they were constructed for horse-and-wagon travel) for safe cardriving but people drive anyways But it's very green and beautiful though I've travelled there far too little..

The people from the western part of Norway are known to be creative, good with economics and very stubborn. The Germans had little fun occupying that part of Norway during the War

[The Gaffer]

The connections go back over 1,000 years, since the Vikings paid their regular visits, and settled here. Orkney and Shetland were Norwegian till about 1600 or so. The connections are genetic, linguistic (Shetlanders sound very much like Norwegians do when they're speaking English) and historic.

Check out the Shetland Bus: http://www.shetland-heritage.co.uk/shetlandbus/

Re: oil: Scotland and England are part of the same country: the UK. Many people, not least the English, tend to make the mistake of thinking that England and the UK are the same thing. So the oil belongs to the UK, which means that they are sold off to private enterprise and all we get are tax receipts (most of which is evaded through the usual accountancy practices).

We even had the ridiculous situation last year, when the Russians shut down the supplies to Europe, of our gas being diverted to Germany to top up their stocks. Not that I resent the Germans their stockpile, but it would be nice in a time of crisis if our government was able to say "er, actually, we DON'T HAVE ANY stocks of gas, so actually we'd like the option of using our OWN BLIMMING RESERVES to keep our heating systems alight, thank you very much."

About 75% of the UK oil reserves are in Scottish waters though, so if we were independent we'd get most of what's left. The Nationalists like to point this out as often as possible.

National characters are interesting. Obviously, one has to be careful about stereotyping, but I think there is an affinity there. I wonder if it has to do with population (5m, mostly in cities), a relatively large, unpopulated wilderness, crap weather and historically having fought for identity against a neighbour (didn't Norway have to kick the Danes out to get its independence?). We also share a commitment to social welfare which is noticeably greater than most other countries. Anyway, if you've got the Faroes and Iceland in there, I think Scots should be considered for honorary Scandinavian status.

Personally, I'm not a nationalist: I think there are enough countries already. Being part of a larger whole whilst retaining your identity is something that (many) Scots have an understanding of which eludes most other nationalities (yes, I'm looking at you, England).

PS - don't get too friendly on the football front: you guys are in our group for World Cup qualification, scrapping for second place behind Holland.

[The Gaffer]

:lol: Now I've got "Dentists in Sweden". How did they know my teeth are knackered? Spooky.