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Old 10-02-2008, 08:55 PM   #1
Jon S.
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Nazgûl in the Prancing Pony?

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Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts View Post
Could you clarify this position? Just when do you think Sauron knew Frodo had the Ring? Even if the washed-out Nazgul reported to him that Frodo had the Ring at the ford, there was no reason for Sauron to think the Elves, the Rangers, and Gandalf would let him hang on to it.

I don't think Sauron knew Frodo had the Ring until he put it on and claimed it at Mount Doom.
Perhaps my beef should be more with Sauron being either too stupid - or lacking truly capable intelligence/spies - to know when to act but here's where he could have ended it early:

- in Three Is Company when the "strange voice" questioned the Gaffer and the "rider" was oh-so-close

- in "A Short Cut to Mushrooms" when the "rider" questioned Maggot

- in "A Conspiracy Unmasked" when, on the ferry, the hobbits saw the "rider"

- in "At the Sign of the Prancing Pony" when Frodo disappeared and the swarthy Breelander slipped out, followed by the squint-eyed Southerner

- also at the Prancing Pony, in "A Knife in the Dark," when the Nazgul were literally in the same "motel" as the Ring.

Indeed, Sauron did not lack for opportunities.
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Old 10-03-2008, 02:19 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Jon S. View Post
Perhaps my beef should be more with Sauron being either too stupid - or lacking truly capable intelligence/spies - to know when to act but here's where he could have ended it early:
In UT (HR-the Hunt for the Ring) it is said that
Quote:
Sauron probably had very little power yet in Eriador, and few agents there; and such as he sent were often hindered or misled by the servants of Saruman.
In hindsight it would have been better if he sent some mortal Men, maybe Black Numenoreans disguised as rangers, instead of the Nazgul, but for that he had to know the situation around the Shire, which he didn't.
Then again Sauron was paranoid about a mortal Man stealing his Ring.
Also Sauron (and the nazgul) were afraid that the Ring was not held by the hobbit anymore, but by a person of far more power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon S
- in Three Is Company when the "strange voice" questioned the Gaffer and the "rider" was oh-so-close
- in "A Short Cut to Mushrooms" when the "rider" questioned Maggot
- in "A Conspiracy Unmasked" when, on the ferry, the hobbits saw the "rider"
In all cases it was ol' Khamûl the Easterling of Dol Guldur.
Consider that of the Nine he was the one who felt the most confused in daylight. Also he likely didn't speak good Westron. And, like Saruman, the nazgul were aware of Faramir's dream-words and expected some move between Shire and Rivendell. Khamul didn't really expect to find "the Baggins" at Bag End.

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Originally Posted by Jon S.
- in "At the Sign of the Prancing Pony" when Frodo disappeared and the swarthy Breelander slipped out, followed by the squint-eyed Southerner
- also at the Prancing Pony, in "A Knife in the Dark," when the Nazgul were literally in the same "motel" as the Ring.
The problem of the nazgul was that only the Witch-King and Khamul could sense the Ring really well. And neither of them was in Bree while the hobbits were there. The WK was still at Andrath, guarding the access to Breeland from the South from rangers and Elves and Khamul was at Crickhollow.

The two nazgul in Bree were just... well...not too good to put it mildly: they had almost captured Merry, but panicked when Nob came shouting with a lantern... Pitiful indeed. Also, finding nothing at the Pony, the two nazgul got upset and went south to Andrath to report to the WK - leaving Bree and the East Road unguarded. That's how they lost the trail of the hobbits between Bree and Weathertop.

And really the most obvious reason for their failure is that they had no luck at all. Fortune favors good guys... Sauron knew it quite well:
Quote:
The wrath and fear of Sauron then may be guessed; yet if there was any in the world in whom he trusted it was the Lord of Angmar; and if his wrath were lessened by perceiving that his great servant had defeated by ill chance (and the craft of the Wise) rather than by faults of his own, his fear would be the more – seeing what power was yet in his Enemies, and how sharply fortune favoured them at each turn when all seemed lost. - RC p.262

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Old 10-03-2008, 10:30 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Jon S. View Post

- also at the Prancing Pony, in "A Knife in the Dark," when the Nazgul were literally in the same "motel" as the Ring.

Indeed, Sauron did not lack for opportunities.
Despite two movies, there is no canonical evidence that any of the Nazgul ever entered "The Prancing Pony." Most feel that Bill Ferny and the Soutron destroyed the bolsters &c.
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Old 10-03-2008, 10:50 AM   #4
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Despite two movies, there is no canonical evidence that any of the Nazgul ever entered "The Prancing Pony." Most feel that Bill Ferny and the Soutron destroyed the bolsters &c.
It is another old debate...
The opinion you give, Attalus, is based, as far as I know, on Aragorn's words:
Quote:
'What will happen?' said Merry. 'Will they attack the inn?' 'No, I think not,' said Strider. 'They are not all here yet. And in any case that is not their way. In dark and loneliness they are strongest; they will not openly attack a house where there are lights and many people – not until they are desperate, not while all the long leagues of Eriador still lie before us. But their power is in terror, and already some in Bree are in their clutch. They will drive these wretches to some evil work: Ferny, and some of the strangers, and, maybe, the gatekeeper too. They had words with Harry at West-gate on Monday. I was watching them. He was white and shaking when they left him.'
The contrary opinion, (that it were the nazgul who vandalized the hobbit-sized room), used to have no textual support - but now it can be backed by the quote from "the Hunt for the Ring" in RC p. 166

Quote:
In Marquette MSS 4/2/36 (The Hunt for the Ring) it is said that the three Black Riders who had been sent to Weathertop and told to ride back along the Road reached Bree at dusk [on 29 September], and soon learn from the Isengard spy of the events in the Inn, and guess the presence of the Ring. One is sent to the [Witch-king].... [He] is waylaid by Dúnedain and driven away does not reach [the Witch-king] until the next day.... [The other two] foiled in their attempt to capture Merry make plans for attack on the Inn at night.. .. The Inn attacked by the two Riders in early hours before dawn. Crickhollow attacked at about the same time.... Both attacks fail. [The two Riders in Bree] go off in haste to find [the Witch-king] to report that Bearer has gone (without waiting for further news). [The three from Crickhollow] ride down the Buckland Gate and make also for Andrath...The Nazgûl are thus all assembled at Andrath. [The Witch-king] is exceedingly wroth
Choose what you believe more...

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Old 10-03-2008, 11:19 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordis View Post
It is another old debate...
The opinion you give, Attalus, is based, as far as I know, on Aragorn's words:

Quote:
In dark and loneliness they are strongest; they will not openly attack a house where there are lights and many people
The contrary opinion, (that it were the nazgul who vandalized the hobbit-sized room), used to have no textual support - but now it can be backed by the quote from "the Hunt for the Ring" in RC p. 166

Choose what you believe more...
I think it could be the two nazgul - it wouldn't have been an open attack, but done by stealth in the dark. The hobbits had made sure to be well out of the way anyway, so there were nobody trying to defend the room, and no confrontation.
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Old 10-03-2008, 03:00 PM   #6
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*shrug* "The Hunt for the Ring" is NOT canonical.
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Old 10-03-2008, 09:06 PM   #7
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*shrug* "The Hunt for the Ring" is NOT canonical.
I would agree with Attalus if that is the case.

Can anyone list briefly what works of Tolkien that are canon?
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Old 10-04-2008, 06:48 AM   #8
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What I can't fathom is why it matters to my point who it was who attacked at the Inn. My point remains that Sauron had agents at the scene and at the moment Frodo disappeared, had Sauron marshalled his will and full forces right then to take the Ring, it would have been finis. Now you can think of every reason you like for why he didn't but, in retrospect, it cost Sauron everything.
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Old 10-04-2008, 09:40 AM   #9
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My point remains that Sauron had agents at the scene and at the moment Frodo disappeared, had Sauron marshalled his will and full forces right then to take the Ring, it would have been finis.
I really don't see what you want to say. Do you mean the moment when Frodo mistakenly put on the Ring in Bree?

May I remind you that Sauron was far-far away and couldn't possibly feel that his Ring was put on? He couldn't even communicate with his nazgul at such a distance. And the nazgul couldn't communicate with each other at a distance: to report they had to ride to the WK as any ordinary men would.

Also, the Nazgul "feeling" the Ring being put on is nothing but PJ's invention, with no support in the text. Instead the nazgul had to rely on the Southerner and Bill to tell them about the events in the inn:
Quote:
'What will Ferny sell, and what has my accident got to do with him?' said Frodo, still determined not to understand Strider's hints.
'News of you, of course,' answered Strider. 'An account of your performance would be very interesting to certain people. After that they would hardly need to be told your real name. It seems to me only too likely that they will hear of it before this night is over.
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Old 10-04-2008, 11:28 AM   #10
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I have to admit, I'm not 100% certain what I wanted to say, either (it was early Sat. AM before coffee! ) but I guess I feel that Sauron had enough lead time to know the general whereabouts of the Ring by then and agents already in place so it's my gut that he blew a golden opportunity there.

After all, you yourself quoted Aragorn, in cannonical context , as saying that it would be only a matter of hours ("before this night is over") that word had gone out.

Put it this way: if our government had serious intelligence that, 8 hours earlier, someone had been definitely spotted travelling by foot with the power equivalent

of a nuclear weapon do you believe it would be treated as cavalierly as Sauron when the Ring was located in Bree? (Then again, knowing our government ... )
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Old 10-05-2008, 11:21 AM   #11
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I'd like to thank all of you for your excellent, thoughtful, thought-provoking responses. They are leading me to revise some of my preconceptions of who and what the Nazgul were, what they could or could not do, and the nature of Saruon's control and management of his minions. On the last point particularly, my entire life's experience with management and organizational issues is that an inflexible hierarchical arrangement maintained on the basis of fear rather than vision & duty leads to underlings who are hesitant and uncreative. Perhaps, more than anything else, this explains the ineptitude (yes, I still view it as ineptitude) of Saruon's Nazgul and human servants in the Shire and Bree regions.
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Old 10-05-2008, 03:52 PM   #12
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On the last point particularly, my entire life's experience with management and organizational issues is that an inflexible hierarchical arrangement maintained on the basis of fear rather than vision & duty leads to underlings who are hesitant and uncreative. Perhaps, more than anything else, this explains the ineptitude (yes, I still view it as ineptitude) of Saruon's Nazgul and human servants in the Shire and Bree regions.
Good observation. The movie presents nazgul as single-minded beings entirely obsessed with getting the Ring. But in the text they are quite different - quite human in fact. They know fear, they can get upset, they can get angry and hysterical.
Their first concern is not for the Ring, but for their own hide. They fear getting killed - more than an average Man or Elf. That is because, if killed, they would become powerless spirits still under Sauron's control, without any interaction with the physical plane, doomed to roam ME forever (or until the Rings have power). If they want the Ring, it is only to avoid Sauron's wrath and punishment. Indeed this approach doesn't lead to much creativity and enthusiasm.

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Originally Posted by Coffeehouse
Let me repeat that again: They are concerned(!), these Nazgûl(!), that a few(!) intoxicated(!) locals(!! Not exactly knights of Gondor or High Elves of Rivendell!!) might cause a stir as they grab the thing they most desire in the entire world.
I think the nazgul did not attack the common room, just because they were so few - not because they were afraid of locals, but because they feared to lose their prey.
Imagine two nazgul with drawn swords rushing into the common room of the Prancing Pony and ordering everyone to please remain where they are and put their jewelry on the table.
What will happen? Some customers, like Strider, maybe also the Dwarves, will stand and fight, but the majority - all the intoxicated locals and all the hobbits included - will stampede in mindless terror through doors, windows and all sorts of exits that they would find. Without automatic fire weapons it is impossible to control everyone in the room, let us face it. The nazgul had not enough men to surround the inn and kill everyone who escaped. It is almost inevitable that some hobbits would get away.
And so what? The nazgul knew for sure that the Ring was in Bree at the moment and later would be moving towards Rivendell. Acting like that would only send the Ringbearer flying - and who knows where? He could hide in any hole in the Bree-hill and lie there low, he could get out of Bree and run north, east west or south.
Much better was to wait and try to burglar their rooms at night - quietly.
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Old 10-05-2008, 03:32 PM   #13
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I have a tough time seeing the Nazgul as incompetent. The task they were given was far more difficult than is generally recognized. The story was written so as to make Frodo's journey to Rivendell seem nearly impossible, yet the Nazguls' job was hardly easy.

Since the land was largely empty and lonely, it is hard to see the situation this way, but the Nazgul were actually deep in enemy territory. The had practically no allies, servants, or support nearby. Sauron's spy network (aka: potential aid for the Nazgul) was so weak in the region that they (originally) had no idea where the Shire was. This, I think, is mostly due to the unheralded work of the Rangers. The most evil neighborhood in the area was inhabited by a Maia (or being, if you prefer) who could end a wight's existence with a few words. Groups of High Elves were wandering around and all the might of Rivendell was nearby. Gandalf showed up. Were Saruman and Radagast nearby? Glorfindel showed up. Was he really alone or was he leading a force out of Rivendell, as he had done before?

Despite their failure, I believe it can be argued that the Nazgul hunted the Ring umm…correctly. They confronted Frodo at the first "chokepoint" that Alcuin mentioned. There they received quite a shock: a barrow-blade wielding Ringbearer (apparently) capable of defeating a wight, who was (apparently) in league with the Noldor. Even so, the Witch King managed to give Frodo a wound which should have brought him under the Nazguls' control. Later, the Nazgul had to deal with Glorfindel and Elrond.

Regarding the Nazgul not attacking the Inn, I'm not sure whether to call this a blunder or not (at least while ignoring the 20/20 hindsight, of course). Rivendell was far away, Bree was populous, the Nazgul were attempting to be secretive, and they had no way of knowing that Gandalf and Glorfindel would become involved. On the other hand, the Ring was right there and neither Gandalf nor Elves were nearby, a situation which was likely to change. I think Jon hit on the correct answer here. The lesser Nazgul on their own were incapable of making the decision to attack Bree and the Witch King was far away.

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Old 10-06-2008, 05:52 AM   #14
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As for the Nazgûl. They got it right in some places, but in the moments where real risk-taking, coolness of mind and affirmative action was required, they came short.

The Nazgûl should be judged for what their ultimate purpose in 'life' is, finding the One Ring. They are Ringwraiths, who's entire servitude under Sauron in the Third Age centers around Sauron's number one priority, finding the ring. So really, the question should be as to during which situations the Nazgûl acted with incompetence in relation to their ultimate goal and the circumstance of any specific point in time that the Ring was close.

Here are some points:

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Originally Posted by Gordis View Post
In all cases it was ol' Khamûl the Easterling of Dol Guldur.
Khamul didn't really expect to find "the Baggins" at Bag End.
Why didn't Khamûl expect to find 'the Baggins' at Bag End when he was informatively told by Gaffer Gamgee that Frodo Baggins had left for Buckland? I can't really see a defence for this. Can anyone provide one?

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The two nazgul in Bree were just... well...not too good to put it mildly: they had almost captured Merry, but panicked when Nob came shouting with a lantern... Pitiful indeed.
This to me is an example of outright incompetence. The Nazgûl have, collectively, been in hot pursuit of 'the Baggins' and the One Ring for a nearly a week, an eventful number of fast-paced days. To come that close to what is obviously something that resembles 'the Baggins' and not act can't easily be characterized as anything but incompetent.

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Originally Posted by Gordis View Post
And really the most obvious reason for their failure is that they had no luck at all. Fortune favors good guys... Sauron knew it quite well:
This isn't entirely true. If I was to point out two examples of relatively good luck it would have to be the Nazgûl coming across the Dunlending, getting valuable information, maps and names. That is lucky for a band of riders whom have been off the scent for the entire summer.
The second piece of luck would be Khamûl learning of Frodo's journeying towards Buckland. Although it was unlucky that Frodo had left, they were now knowledgeable about his relatively immediate whereabouts, and wouldn't you know it, Khamûl himself came across the three hobbits a forthnight later, which proves what luck he had.

The Nazgûl did do somethings right:
1. They employed a reasonably intelligent tactic wherein the team split up into smaller groups. This enabled them to cover greater expands of land and it gave them more stealth since they emitted less 'fear factor' by themselves than when united, and this 'fear factor' was more times than not unhelpful to them in the Shire area all the way to Bree.
2. They usually went to the right places. The Witch-king went to the Barrow-downs, which was good thinking. They visited Hobbiton, Buckland, Bree, etc and focused their efforts on places that were part of the three-four hobbit's path of journeying.

These two elements, a tactic of stealth and striking at the correct places, were competent moves. But I expect more. Had these Nazgûl been new to the business of searching, and had they not known that Sauron was furious about how slow things had been going since the summer, then they should perhaps be forgiven for their errors. That's not the case though. They had been in pursuit of the One Ring for over 2 months (counting their travels east of the Misty Mountains) and they knew that Sauron at this point, although interested in a stealthly approach, still emphasized speed over stealth. I.e., he wanted to get done with this business.

So although the tactic of stealth was a reasonable approach, this tactic should have been substituted with another tactic as situations unfolded: affirmative action. Shock and awe!
After the Nazgûl crossed the Sarn they had arguably two defining moments where they failed, and it wasn't just any Nazgûl that failed. It was Khamûl, followed by the Witch-king himself.
1. Khamûl, having the fortune to be told by Gaffer Gamgee of Frodo's relative whereabouts actually comes across the three hobbits. What follows is a question mark to me. Yes Gildor and the High Elves pass near by, but before this happens the Lieutenant couldn't possibly have missed the hobbits. Foregoing that opportunity of taking the Ring is an example of some serious underperformance. Incompetence at a time when a cool head and swift action could have made the difference. But Khamûl demonstrated that he wasn't up to the task.
2. The Witch-king, accompanied by Khamûl and three other Nazgûl, though only attacking Frodo with two of them, manages to miss Frodo's heart in a 3 versus 1 combat. This is obviously before Aragorn intervenes. The Witch-king is in these defining seconds in front of 'the Baggins', with the One Ring on his finger, lit up in front of him like a Christmas Tree. The Witch-king has dealt deathblows to his enemies for hundreds and thousands of years, a length of time that any warrior that ever existed in our own world would drool at, and manages to not strike Frodo with the expect pin-point precision into 'the Baggins' heart. I don't expect the Witch-king to hit right above the heart, or right below it. I expect him to hit it square on! Not a millimeter shy of the target!
Yet we all know the story, the Witch-king misses, hitting the shoulder instead, while admittedly leaving splinters in the said hobbit's body, ultimately fails. That is incompetence. But I would appreciate a defence of this if anyone can offer it
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Old 10-06-2008, 12:38 PM   #15
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The Nazgûl should be judged for what their ultimate purpose in 'life' is, finding the One Ring. They are Ringwraiths, who's entire servitude under Sauron in the Third Age centers around Sauron's number one priority, finding the ring.
That is wrong, IMO. Searching for the Ring was far from the nazgul's 'ultimate purpose in 'life'. In the Second Age and for the most of the Third Age their ultimate purpose was to rule countries and fight Sauron's enemies, maybe serve as ambassadors, but never to hunt like a pack of wolves. Especially not hunt something so small and elusive as hobbits. They were quite new to the business - not too good at it, and, I guess, hated it. Sauron started searching for the Ring in earnest since 3017, when he had questioned Gollum. The nazgul became involved in June-July 3018.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coffeehouse
Why didn't Khamûl expect to find 'the Baggins' at Bag End when he was informatively told by Gaffer Gamgee that Frodo Baggins had left for Buckland? I can't really see a defence for this. Can anyone provide one?
Khamul must have expected that the Ring had already left the Shire and was moving to Rivendell. The Gaffer had confirmed this, but also said that Baggins "left this morning". Thus Baggins had to be still nearby, and Khamul rushed to hunt along the east road. In hindsight, yes, it would have been better to go up to the hole and check...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coffeehouse
So although the tactic of stealth was a reasonable approach, this tactic should have been substituted with another tactic as situations unfolded: affirmative action. Shock and awe!
But Khamûl demonstrated that he wasn't up to the task.
Actually Tolkien agrees with you:
Quote:
But desiring to attract as little notice as possible [Khamul] (mistakenly and against Sauron's orders) sacrifices speed to stealth. -RC p.164
Everyone has his faults. Khamul was ring-sensitive, but also confused in daylight and very cautious and indecisive overall.

Now the two nazgul in Bree *sigh*. Let us try to find some excuses for these poor guys.
Quote:
To come that close to what is obviously something that resembles 'the Baggins' and not act can't easily be characterized as anything but incompetent.
Merry got caught by the east gate of Bree, far-far from the Prancing Pony. He was not the only hobbit in Bree, not even one of the four hobbits in Bree - there were lots and lots of them, hundreds or more, all alike. Merry was caught far from the Inn, he had no Ring - why the nazgul would deem keeping and questioning him important? There was nothing to link Merry to the Ringbearer.
Moreover, at the moment, the nazgul were trying very hard not to cause any commotion, because at the very same time, Bill and the Southerner were telling them something very important: the story about a hobbit disappearing into thin air in the common room of the Pony.

Now they knew beyond doubt that the Ring was in the Inn. One of the three nazgul immediately rode away to warn the WK. Indeed, nazgul forces were spread at the moment from the Shire to Weahertop to Andrath - it was high time to gather together in Bree.

Actually the question who has burglared and trashed the hobbits rooms is moot, IMO - most likely they were at it together. I don't see the two nazgul remaining in Bill's house while they sent some cowardly, greedy, untrustworthy ruffians to get The One Ring of all things.

I see the scene this way. The remaining two nazgul, Bill, the Southerner, and maybe also Harry, waited till everyone in the Inn went to bed. Then some of the ruffians (not the nazgul) went into the stables, quietly stole all the horses and ponies, with the exception of the one belonging to the Southerner.The animals were led to the West gate and Harry the Gatekeeper opened it to let them out.
The others, meanwhile, came around to the north side of the Inn to the hobbit-rooms windows. The ringwraiths were eager and hopeful, while the ruffians were very much afraid of their undead accomplices, only the promise of a reward was driving them on. Likely it were Ferny and the Southerner who forced open the window, quietly and professionally as thieves or spies, and slipped inside in silence. The nazgul waited right outside.

Then Ferny and the Southerner got out of the window and whispered fearfully: "There is no one inside, they are gone."

What? The nazgul, forgetting their wraithy dignity, climbed, cursing, inside through the hobbit-sized windows - with their swords, long cloaks and heavy riding boots - to check for themselves. That was when the nazgul got in a fit, all their hopes shattered...That was when the beds were tossed about, and the bolsters slashed and hacked with the swords and flung upon the floor and the brown mat representing Frodo's head was torn to pieces.

I highly suspect that the Southerner and Ferny used this time to run away - who would want to wait and see if the nazgul would vent their anger on something other than furniture?

The sensible thing to do, IMO, was not to make any fuss, but to send the Southerner to search the inn quietly. He was staying in the inn - so he had full access there. He could simply ask Butterbur or Nob where to find the hobbits, inventing some plausible story. But the two nazgul did nothing of the kind. The vandalism in the inn was quite unnecessary and could be explained only by hysterics and the loss of control. Then we learn (from RC) that the two nazgul went directly to Andrath to cry on the Witch-King's shoulder, abandoning Bree unguarded. This is pure incompetence and the WK was mad at them - and rightly.

Last edited by Gordis : 10-06-2008 at 12:51 PM.
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Old 10-06-2008, 02:26 PM   #16
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Thank you for the reply

You're right, I generalized a bit too much on their 'ultimate goal in life', but what I really wanted to get at was that, as skilled hunters and warriors they were, consumed in will to serve only Sauron, and had one, singular goal in the year 3018. Now, although they didn't hunt for the ring before that time there were two basic elements required for this hunt which they had been having the time to practice for hundreds and thousands of years: namely stealth, and nocturnal moving/hunting/fighting.
And yeah, like you put it: "But the two nazgul did nothing of the kind. The vandalism in the inn was quite unnecessary and could be explained only by hysterics and the loss of control. Then we learn (from RC) that the two nazgul went directly to Andrath to cry on the Witch-King's shoulder, abandoning Bree unguarded. This is pure incompetence and the WK was mad at them - and rightly."
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Old 10-06-2008, 02:27 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Gordis View Post
The ringwraiths were eager and hopeful
There is, IMO, so much wrong with this image.

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The vandalism in the inn was quite unnecessary and could be explained only by hysterics and the loss of control.
The Nazgûl don't really strike me as the type to throw hissy hits. And if they really lost control after finding no one, I'm pretty sure they would have shrieked. In that aspect I think it more likely their human minions did the wrecking because now they had to go and explain things to the Nazgûl.
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Old 10-06-2008, 03:57 PM   #18
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The ringwraiths were eager and hopeful.There is, IMO, so much wrong with this image. .
You want to say that the nazgul were NOT eager to get the Ring - to please Sau, to go back to their comfortable quarters in Minas Morgul, to stop wandering through hills and forests and mushroom fields, to stop digging Maggot's carrots to feed their horses, to have to endure with exemplary patience the rudeness of disgusting hairy-footed locals?


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The Nazgûl don't really strike me as the type to throw hissy hits. And if they really lost control after finding no one, I'm pretty sure they would have shrieked. In that aspect I think it more likely their human minions did the wrecking because now they had to go and explain things to the Nazgûl.
And were Ferny and Saruman's spy the type to throw hissy tantrums? Maybe they were - but not under the circumstances. Not when they were afraid. Not with the terrifying nazgul watching them.
Quote:
Strider: [The Black riders] had words with Harry at West-gate on Monday. I was watching them. He was white and shaking when they left him.'
As for the shrieks, the nazgul hardly shrieked all the time as they did in the movie. They used shrieks in the Shire to find one another and only once, IIRC - and there were words in their cries. In RC we learn that by this cry Khamul summoned his buddy from Dol-Guldur.
The next time we hear a cry already on Weathertop.

And, Earniel, if it were Bill and the Dunlending trashing the room - wouldn't all the Inn hear their curses?
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Old 10-07-2008, 08:30 PM   #19
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I see the scene this way. The remaining two nazgul, Bill, the Southerner, and maybe also Harry, waited till everyone in the Inn went to bed. Then some of the ruffians (not the nazgul) went into the stables, quietly stole all the horses and ponies, with the exception of the one belonging to the Southerner.The animals were led to the West gate and Harry the Gatekeeper opened it to let them out.
The others, meanwhile, came around to the north side of the Inn to the hobbit-rooms windows. The ringwraiths were eager and hopeful, while the ruffians were very much afraid of their undead accomplices, only the promise of a reward was driving them on. Likely it were Ferny and the Southerner who forced open the window, quietly and professionally as thieves or spies, and slipped inside in silence. The nazgul waited right outside.

Then Ferny and the Southerner got out of the window and whispered fearfully: "There is no one inside, they are gone."

What? The nazgul, forgetting their wraithy dignity, climbed, cursing, inside through the hobbit-sized windows - with their swords, long cloaks and heavy riding boots - to check for themselves. That was when the nazgul got in a fit, all their hopes shattered...That was when the beds were tossed about, and the bolsters slashed and hacked with the swords and flung upon the floor and the brown mat representing Frodo's head was torn to pieces.

I highly suspect that the Southerner and Ferny used this time to run away - who would want to wait and see if the nazgul would vent their anger on something other than furniture?
I would be more inclined to believe this charming version except for the fact, I must insist upon, that the Nazgul could not see without their horses. They would be much more likely to think that Bill and the Southron had bungled it and sneaked away to try again later. I think Bill and the Southron tore up the bolsters and mat in frustration at having to bring bad news to their very, very scarey masters.
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Old 10-08-2008, 02:20 AM   #20
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nazgul sight

"Sorry, I can't see well by daylight. Please allow my horse to look at it" - From Khamul's Westron phrase-book.

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the fact, I must insist upon, that the Nazgul could not see without their horses.
That is by day, not at night. Here is the quote:

Quote:
'Can the Riders see?' asked Merry. 'I mean, they seem usually to have used their noses rather than their eyes, smelling for us, if smelling is the right word, at least in the daylight. But you made us lie down flat when you saw them down below; and now you talk of being seen, if we move.'
'I was too careless on the hill-top,' answered Strider. [...] They themselves do not see the world of light as we do, but our shapes cast shadows in their minds, which only the noon sun destroys; and in the dark they perceive many signs and forms that are hidden from us: then they are most to be feared. And at all times they smell the blood of living things, desiring and hating it. Senses, too, there are other than sight or smell.
So the nazgul, even by day, can see the misty shapes of people - I guess exactly in the same way as Sam with the Ring on was able to see orcs at Cirith Ungol:
Quote:
Then he put it on. [...] At once he was aware that hearing was sharpened while sight was dimmed[/B], but otherwise than in Shelob's lair. All things about him now were not dark but vague; while he himself was there in a grey hazy world, alone, like a small black solid rock [...]
He heard [...] deafening, roaring in his ears, the crash of the feet and the rending clamour of the Orcs before him. He shrank against the cliff. But they marched up like a phantom company, grey distorted figures in a mist, only dreams of fear with pale flames in their hands.
It exactly matches the description of nazgul sight in the Hunt for the Ring texts:
Quote:
The Nazgûl found one another easily, since they were quickly aware of a companion presence, and could hear the cries over great distances. They could see one another also from far away, even by day when to them a Nazgûl was the one clearly visible thing in a mist.RC p.164
In day time, the nazgul sight was obscured by heavy mist - but at night it was not so, and they could see even more than humans (see the first quote) + they smelled living blood + had "other senses."

There was nothing to prevent the nazgul from operating at night in a lightless room.

Also, all this story about the Dunlanding and his maps and lists told in UT, implies that the nazgul saw enough of the World of Light to be able to read! Maybe they could not read by daylight, but at night certainly.

Quote:
I think Bill and the Southron tore up the bolsters and mat in frustration at having to bring bad news to their very, very scarey masters.
As I said, I don't believe, I can't believe, that the nazgul would remain away from the Inn while they sent some untrustworthy ruffians to get the One Ring. I am sure they would be there as well.
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