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#1 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 455
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Nazgûl in the Prancing Pony?
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- in Three Is Company when the "strange voice" questioned the Gaffer and the "rider" was oh-so-close - in "A Short Cut to Mushrooms" when the "rider" questioned Maggot - in "A Conspiracy Unmasked" when, on the ferry, the hobbits saw the "rider" - in "At the Sign of the Prancing Pony" when Frodo disappeared and the swarthy Breelander slipped out, followed by the squint-eyed Southerner - also at the Prancing Pony, in "A Knife in the Dark," when the Nazgul were literally in the same "motel" as the Ring. Indeed, Sauron did not lack for opportunities.
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#2 | |||||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
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Then again Sauron was paranoid about a mortal Man stealing his Ring. Also Sauron (and the nazgul) were afraid that the Ring was not held by the hobbit anymore, but by a person of far more power. Quote:
Consider that of the Nine he was the one who felt the most confused in daylight. Also he likely didn't speak good Westron. And, like Saruman, the nazgul were aware of Faramir's dream-words and expected some move between Shire and Rivendell. Khamul didn't really expect to find "the Baggins" at Bag End. Quote:
The two nazgul in Bree were just... well...not too good to put it mildly: they had almost captured Merry, but panicked when Nob came shouting with a lantern... Pitiful indeed. Also, finding nothing at the Pony, the two nazgul got upset and went south to Andrath to report to the WK - leaving Bree and the East Road unguarded. That's how they lost the trail of the hobbits between Bree and Weathertop. And really the most obvious reason for their failure is that they had no luck at all. Fortune favors good guys... Sauron knew it quite well: Quote:
Last edited by Gordis : 10-03-2008 at 02:21 AM. |
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#3 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: On the Bay of Belfalas
Posts: 1,125
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Despite two movies, there is no canonical evidence that any of the Nazgul ever entered "The Prancing Pony." Most feel that Bill Ferny and the Soutron destroyed the bolsters &c.
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#4 | |||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
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![]() The opinion you give, Attalus, is based, as far as I know, on Aragorn's words: Quote:
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#5 | ||
Princess of the Noldor (and Administrative Empress of the Lone Islands)
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Imladris (and sometimes Norway)
Posts: 3,304
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#6 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: On the Bay of Belfalas
Posts: 1,125
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*shrug* "The Hunt for the Ring" is NOT canonical.
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
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#7 |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 2,145
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I would agree with Attalus if that is the case.
Can anyone list briefly what works of Tolkien that are canon?
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#8 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 455
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What I can't fathom is why it matters to my point who it was who attacked at the Inn. My point remains that Sauron had agents at the scene and at the moment Frodo disappeared, had Sauron marshalled his will and full forces right then to take the Ring, it would have been finis. Now you can think of every reason you like for why he didn't but, in retrospect, it cost Sauron everything.
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#9 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
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May I remind you that Sauron was far-far away and couldn't possibly feel that his Ring was put on? He couldn't even communicate with his nazgul at such a distance. And the nazgul couldn't communicate with each other at a distance: to report they had to ride to the WK as any ordinary men would. Also, the Nazgul "feeling" the Ring being put on is nothing but PJ's invention, with no support in the text. Instead the nazgul had to rely on the Southerner and Bill to tell them about the events in the inn: Quote:
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#10 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 455
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I have to admit, I'm not 100% certain what I wanted to say, either (it was early Sat. AM before coffee!
![]() After all, you yourself quoted Aragorn, in cannonical context ![]() Put it this way: if our government had serious intelligence that, 8 hours earlier, someone had been definitely spotted travelling by foot with the power equivalent of a nuclear weapon do you believe it would be treated as cavalierly as Sauron when the Ring was located in Bree? (Then again, knowing our government ... ![]()
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#11 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 455
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I'd like to thank all of you for your excellent, thoughtful, thought-provoking responses. They are leading me to revise some of my preconceptions of who and what the Nazgul were, what they could or could not do, and the nature of Saruon's control and management of his minions. On the last point particularly, my entire life's experience with management and organizational issues is that an inflexible hierarchical arrangement maintained on the basis of fear rather than vision & duty leads to underlings who are hesitant and uncreative. Perhaps, more than anything else, this explains the ineptitude (yes, I still view it as ineptitude) of Saruon's Nazgul and human servants in the Shire and Bree regions.
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#12 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
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Their first concern is not for the Ring, but for their own hide. They fear getting killed - more than an average Man or Elf. That is because, if killed, they would become powerless spirits still under Sauron's control, without any interaction with the physical plane, doomed to roam ME forever (or until the Rings have power). If they want the Ring, it is only to avoid Sauron's wrath and punishment. Indeed this approach doesn't lead to much creativity and enthusiasm. Quote:
Imagine two nazgul with drawn swords rushing into the common room of the Prancing Pony and ordering everyone to please remain where they are and put their jewelry on the table. ![]() What will happen? Some customers, like Strider, maybe also the Dwarves, will stand and fight, but the majority - all the intoxicated locals and all the hobbits included - will stampede in mindless terror through doors, windows and all sorts of exits that they would find. Without automatic fire weapons it is impossible to control everyone in the room, let us face it. The nazgul had not enough men to surround the inn and kill everyone who escaped. It is almost inevitable that some hobbits would get away. And so what? The nazgul knew for sure that the Ring was in Bree at the moment and later would be moving towards Rivendell. Acting like that would only send the Ringbearer flying - and who knows where? He could hide in any hole in the Bree-hill and lie there low, he could get out of Bree and run north, east west or south. Much better was to wait and try to burglar their rooms at night - quietly. |
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#13 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 306
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I have a tough time seeing the Nazgul as incompetent. The task they were given was far more difficult than is generally recognized. The story was written so as to make Frodo's journey to Rivendell seem nearly impossible, yet the Nazguls' job was hardly easy.
Since the land was largely empty and lonely, it is hard to see the situation this way, but the Nazgul were actually deep in enemy territory. The had practically no allies, servants, or support nearby. Sauron's spy network (aka: potential aid for the Nazgul) was so weak in the region that they (originally) had no idea where the Shire was. This, I think, is mostly due to the unheralded work of the Rangers. The most evil neighborhood in the area was inhabited by a Maia (or being, if you prefer) who could end a wight's existence with a few words. Groups of High Elves were wandering around and all the might of Rivendell was nearby. Gandalf showed up. Were Saruman and Radagast nearby? Glorfindel showed up. Was he really alone or was he leading a force out of Rivendell, as he had done before? Despite their failure, I believe it can be argued that the Nazgul hunted the Ring umm…correctly. They confronted Frodo at the first "chokepoint" that Alcuin mentioned. There they received quite a shock: a barrow-blade wielding Ringbearer (apparently) capable of defeating a wight, who was (apparently) in league with the Noldor. Even so, the Witch King managed to give Frodo a wound which should have brought him under the Nazguls' control. Later, the Nazgul had to deal with Glorfindel and Elrond. Regarding the Nazgul not attacking the Inn, I'm not sure whether to call this a blunder or not (at least while ignoring the 20/20 hindsight, of course). Rivendell was far away, Bree was populous, the Nazgul were attempting to be secretive, and they had no way of knowing that Gandalf and Glorfindel would become involved. On the other hand, the Ring was right there and neither Gandalf nor Elves were nearby, a situation which was likely to change. I think Jon hit on the correct answer here. The lesser Nazgul on their own were incapable of making the decision to attack Bree and the Witch King was far away. Last edited by CAB : 10-05-2008 at 05:03 PM. |
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#14 | |||
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 2,145
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As for the Nazgûl. They got it right in some places, but in the moments where real risk-taking, coolness of mind and affirmative action was required, they came short.
The Nazgûl should be judged for what their ultimate purpose in 'life' is, finding the One Ring. They are Ringwraiths, who's entire servitude under Sauron in the Third Age centers around Sauron's number one priority, finding the ring. So really, the question should be as to during which situations the Nazgûl acted with incompetence in relation to their ultimate goal and the circumstance of any specific point in time that the Ring was close. Here are some points: Quote:
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The second piece of luck would be Khamûl learning of Frodo's journeying towards Buckland. Although it was unlucky that Frodo had left, they were now knowledgeable about his relatively immediate whereabouts, and wouldn't you know it, Khamûl himself came across the three hobbits a forthnight later, which proves what luck he had. The Nazgûl did do somethings right: 1. They employed a reasonably intelligent tactic wherein the team split up into smaller groups. This enabled them to cover greater expands of land and it gave them more stealth since they emitted less 'fear factor' ![]() 2. They usually went to the right places. The Witch-king went to the Barrow-downs, which was good thinking. They visited Hobbiton, Buckland, Bree, etc and focused their efforts on places that were part of the three-four hobbit's path of journeying. These two elements, a tactic of stealth and striking at the correct places, were competent moves. But I expect more. Had these Nazgûl been new to the business of searching, and had they not known that Sauron was furious about how slow things had been going since the summer, then they should perhaps be forgiven for their errors. That's not the case though. They had been in pursuit of the One Ring for over 2 months (counting their travels east of the Misty Mountains) and they knew that Sauron at this point, although interested in a stealthly approach, still emphasized speed over stealth. I.e., he wanted to get done with this business. So although the tactic of stealth was a reasonable approach, this tactic should have been substituted with another tactic as situations unfolded: affirmative action. Shock and awe! After the Nazgûl crossed the Sarn they had arguably two defining moments where they failed, and it wasn't just any Nazgûl that failed. It was Khamûl, followed by the Witch-king himself. 1. Khamûl, having the fortune to be told by Gaffer Gamgee of Frodo's relative whereabouts actually comes across the three hobbits. What follows is a question mark to me. Yes Gildor and the High Elves pass near by, but before this happens the Lieutenant couldn't possibly have missed the hobbits. Foregoing that opportunity of taking the Ring is an example of some serious underperformance. Incompetence at a time when a cool head and swift action could have made the difference. But Khamûl demonstrated that he wasn't up to the task. 2. The Witch-king, accompanied by Khamûl and three other Nazgûl, though only attacking Frodo with two of them, manages to miss Frodo's heart in a 3 versus 1 combat. This is obviously before Aragorn intervenes. The Witch-king is in these defining seconds in front of 'the Baggins', with the One Ring on his finger, lit up in front of him like a Christmas Tree. The Witch-king has dealt deathblows to his enemies for hundreds and thousands of years, a length of time that any warrior that ever existed in our own world would drool at, and manages to not strike Frodo with the expect pin-point precision into 'the Baggins' heart. I don't expect the Witch-king to hit right above the heart, or right below it. I expect him to hit it square on! Not a millimeter shy of the target! Yet we all know the story, the Witch-king misses, hitting the shoulder instead, while admittedly leaving splinters in the said hobbit's body, ultimately fails. That is incompetence. But I would appreciate a defence of this if anyone can offer it ![]()
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#15 | |||||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
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Now the two nazgul in Bree *sigh*. Let us try to find some excuses for these poor guys. ![]() Quote:
Moreover, at the moment, the nazgul were trying very hard not to cause any commotion, because at the very same time, Bill and the Southerner were telling them something very important: the story about a hobbit disappearing into thin air in the common room of the Pony. Now they knew beyond doubt that the Ring was in the Inn. One of the three nazgul immediately rode away to warn the WK. Indeed, nazgul forces were spread at the moment from the Shire to Weahertop to Andrath - it was high time to gather together in Bree. Actually the question who has burglared and trashed the hobbits rooms is moot, IMO - most likely they were at it together. I don't see the two nazgul remaining in Bill's house while they sent some cowardly, greedy, untrustworthy ruffians to get The One Ring of all things. I see the scene this way. The remaining two nazgul, Bill, the Southerner, and maybe also Harry, waited till everyone in the Inn went to bed. Then some of the ruffians (not the nazgul) went into the stables, quietly stole all the horses and ponies, with the exception of the one belonging to the Southerner.The animals were led to the West gate and Harry the Gatekeeper opened it to let them out. The others, meanwhile, came around to the north side of the Inn to the hobbit-rooms windows. The ringwraiths were eager and hopeful, while the ruffians were very much afraid of their undead accomplices, only the promise of a reward was driving them on. Likely it were Ferny and the Southerner who forced open the window, quietly and professionally as thieves or spies, and slipped inside in silence. The nazgul waited right outside. Then Ferny and the Southerner got out of the window and whispered fearfully: "There is no one inside, they are gone." What? The nazgul, forgetting their wraithy dignity, climbed, cursing, inside through the hobbit-sized windows - with their swords, long cloaks and heavy riding boots - to check for themselves. That was when the nazgul got in a fit, all their hopes shattered...That was when the beds were tossed about, and the bolsters slashed and hacked with the swords and flung upon the floor and the brown mat representing Frodo's head was torn to pieces. I highly suspect that the Southerner and Ferny used this time to run away - who would want to wait and see if the nazgul would vent their anger on something other than furniture? ![]() The sensible thing to do, IMO, was not to make any fuss, but to send the Southerner to search the inn quietly. He was staying in the inn - so he had full access there. He could simply ask Butterbur or Nob where to find the hobbits, inventing some plausible story. But the two nazgul did nothing of the kind. The vandalism in the inn was quite unnecessary and could be explained only by hysterics and the loss of control. Then we learn (from RC) that the two nazgul went directly to Andrath to cry on the Witch-King's shoulder, abandoning Bree unguarded. This is pure incompetence and the WK was mad at them - and rightly. Last edited by Gordis : 10-06-2008 at 12:51 PM. |
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#16 |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 2,145
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Thank you for the reply
![]() You're right, I generalized a bit too much on their 'ultimate goal in life', but what I really wanted to get at was that, as skilled hunters and warriors they were, consumed in will to serve only Sauron, and had one, singular goal in the year 3018. Now, although they didn't hunt for the ring before that time there were two basic elements required for this hunt which they had been having the time to practice for hundreds and thousands of years: namely stealth, and nocturnal moving/hunting/fighting. And yeah, like you put it: "But the two nazgul did nothing of the kind. The vandalism in the inn was quite unnecessary and could be explained only by hysterics and the loss of control. Then we learn (from RC) that the two nazgul went directly to Andrath to cry on the Witch-King's shoulder, abandoning Bree unguarded. This is pure incompetence and the WK was mad at them - and rightly."
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#17 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
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There is, IMO, so much wrong with this image.
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#18 | |||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
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The next time we hear a cry already on Weathertop. And, Earniel, if it were Bill and the Dunlending trashing the room - wouldn't all the Inn hear their curses? ![]() ![]() |
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#19 | |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: On the Bay of Belfalas
Posts: 1,125
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
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#20 | |||||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
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nazgul sight
"Sorry, I can't see well by daylight. Please allow my horse to look at it" - From Khamul's Westron phrase-book.
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There was nothing to prevent the nazgul from operating at night in a lightless room. Also, all this story about the Dunlanding and his maps and lists told in UT, implies that the nazgul saw enough of the World of Light to be able to read! Maybe they could not read by daylight, but at night certainly. Quote:
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Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Queer things you hear.... | frodosampippinmerry | Lord of the Rings Books | 37 | 03-23-2007 02:30 PM |
Were the Nazgul free from Sauron for the most part of the Third Age? | Gordis | Middle Earth | 141 | 07-09-2006 07:16 PM |
They'd never say that! | Samwise Gamgee | Lord of the Rings Books | 1001 | 07-01-2006 12:12 PM |
The Prancing Pony | Curubethion | RPG Forum | 52 | 11-15-2005 06:53 PM |