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#1 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 19
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![]() After lurking for quite a while, I've decided to create a thread about a question I fear have no real answer in Tolkiens writings.
What did the nazgul do during and after Saurons defeat by the last alliance? They first appeared around S.A. 2251. At Saurons fall they "go into the shadows". 1050 Sauron begins to take new form and 1300 the nazgul goes more or less public again and founds Angmar. Does "go into the shadows" mean that they were rendered "empty and shapeless" like Gandalf hoped they were at the ford of Bruinen? If so, what happened to their rings when they were disembodied at Saurons fall? Did Elendil, Gil-galad & Co defeat and temporarily shatter any nazgul before fighting Sauron? As Saurons most powerful servants at least some of the nazgul must have fought the last alliance. Was their passing "into the shadows" exclusively a result of Saurons personal defeat or were they also temporarily "slain"? Did at least some of the nazgul loose their rings at the end of the second age? How fast did they heal and regroup? Were they guided by Saurons all the time? Could they communicate with him before 1050? So many questions that probably lacks answers but I encourage creative speculation. |
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#2 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
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Vidugavia, Welcome to Entmoot!
![]() Nice thread. I think once everyone wakes up, we'll get some good discussion on it. I'd contribute a little right now, but I need to get to bed. We've even done a little bit of RP fanfic on the topic around here! ![]()
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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#3 |
Salt Miner
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: gone to Far Harad
Posts: 987
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Amen to Valandil: welcome, Vidugavia, and good question.
Gordis has a highly evolved theory on this subject: Nazgûl are her especial, favorite topic. |
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#4 |
Leaf-Crowned Lord Of Elvenpath
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Heaven by the looks of it. Hell by the feel of it.
Posts: 1,052
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![]() On rings: I don't think they could lose them. The more propable explanation is that they were magically bound on their fingers, impossible to be removed. Other one I can think of is that once Sauron had them under his control - so much that if he told them to jump into Mt. Doom, they would - he ordered the Nine to NEVER remove them. So they'd be doomed to forever bear them, whether they were magically bound or not, with no way out of Sauron's dominion.
On "go into shadows": I think that they merely lost their form in the world of light. But alas, Sauron still alive, they could recover. Possibly because: While Sauron's power and life was bound on the One, the power of the Nine rings was rather bound on the Nine Nazgûl. Those 9 Rings were certainly corrupted, but I don't believe they had a will of their own. Nazgûl cannot exist (as Nazgûl) without their Rings on hand, while Sauron can. IF the 9 Rings had been somehow destroyed/removed before the Nazgûl had worn them for long, I guess they had been almost normal, though weary people. Whereas Sauron was destroyed with the One. Opinions?
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#5 |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
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Thank you for directing me to this thread, Alcuin, but as long as I am far from home and away from my books, I can only rely on memory.
Wht you say is all very nice and logical, NEL, but unfortunately, it is contradicted by Tolkien's own writings. At the time of the War or the Ring, the nazgul didn't wear their Rings, it was Sauron who held them (See Unfinished Tales, Hunt for the Ring). That was how he controlled the nazgul, without the Ruling Ring. Nazgul in LOR wear no rings. That is why nazgul clothing is visible. That is why when nazgul wish to go around invisible, they have to remove their garments and go unclad. If they had their rings, they would have been invisible: clothes and all, much like Frodo wearing the Ring. As for the original question, again the answer lies in UT, this time a note (was it No 21? or maybe 12?) to the "Disaster of the Gladden Fields". The Ringwraiths had retreated East with the remnants of orcs from Barad-Dur. I take it they were more or less hale and sound when they retreated into shadows - likely put on their Rings and went into the Shadow-world, becoming invisible. The Nine rings they likely still had in their possession, so the fact that the One changed hands didn't effect them: they were always bound to the Nine rings and only secondarily to the One. Likely they simply stayed somewhere in the East or South before TA 1300 when the WK founded Angmar. I hope that helps. |
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#6 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
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Quote:
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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#7 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 455
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After the One's demise, the bearers of the Three lost their Ring-associated powers, right? So wouldn't the Nine rings also have lost their powers, and by extension, the Nazgul lost theirs? If so, the Nazgul would no longer have a way to sustain their spirits in this world and would be expected to essentially die, either on the spot or after concluding their now-resumed natural lifespan?
“Now the Elves made many rings; but secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule all the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last.” [Silm: Rings (287)]
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Don't curse the darkness - light a candle. ![]() Last edited by Jon S. : 08-21-2008 at 07:29 PM. |
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#8 | ||
Salt Miner
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Extra sauce, anyone? |
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#9 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 987
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I think this thread's OP was talking about after the Last Alliance and before Sauron rose again to power toward the end of the Third Age.
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#10 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 455
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By jove, you're right!
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#11 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 987
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I had the same question in mind, Alcuin. If they wore their rings while Sauron was impotent, and Sauron had to have their rings in hand to control them, how did he ever persuade them to return the rings to him?
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#12 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
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![]() Edit: there was this thread about the question you ask: Were the Nazgul free from Sauron for the most part of the Third Age? Last edited by Gordis : 08-25-2008 at 09:54 AM. |
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#13 | |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
Join Date: Apr 2008
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"Well, thief! I smell you and I feel your air. I hear your breath. Come along! Help yourself again, there is plenty and to spare." |
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#14 |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
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Thanks, Coffeehouse!
I have re-read the thread and now I find that I like the third idea advanced by CAB best: http://www.entmoot.com/showpost.php?...1&postcount=85 The nazgul still wore their rings when Sauron lost his; they became independant and free, until Sauron collected their Rings. Now I think CAB was right thinking that the Witch-King's ring was the last of the Nine Sauron collected and Sauron got it between 1975 and 1980. The nazgul in Minas Morgul were likely already ring-less. |
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#15 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 19
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Thanks for all the answers, even the russian detour was somewhat interesting.
![]() CAB:s ideas are really inspiring. The reason for asking, apart from pure curiosity, is that I'm writing a rpg adventure set during the gondorian kinstrife where it would be nice to have a lost nazgul ring of power as a plot device. Would it be possible that the witch king lost his ring during the war of the last alliance but reformed without it and rose to power in Angmar? |
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#16 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 987
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Yeah, a lost ring of power would most likely be Dwarven, not Elvish or Nazgul.
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#17 |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
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A Dwarven Ring - one of the Seven - could have easily been acquired after the big battle where many Dwarves were slain: some on the Alliance side, some on Sauron's. Perhaps whole clans have been wiped out with no relative nearby to take the Ring from a dead Dwarf-Lord. A man could have found a slain dwarf with a now-visible Ring after the battle. He could have found bones of the dwarf centuries later as well, either at the Dagorlad - Dead Marches or near the ruins of Barad-Dur.
Tolkien used to play with the idea that Saruman's ring was one of the Seven, but later abandoned it. So some of the Seven could be unaccounted for. A Dwarven ring, when used by a mortal, would hardly differ from a Nazgul's ring in its effects: it would render a mortal man invisible and later cause him to fade. (The Seven were unable to do so to a Dwarf - but that is explained solely by the tough nature of the Children of Aule). Much like the Nine, the Seven were made with Sauron's direct involvement using his know-how and "perverted". Then again, any Great Ring, any of the 20, is a danger to a mortal. Also note that a random Third Age Man would likely know next to nothing about Rings. |
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#18 | ||||
Salt Miner
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: gone to Far Harad
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It is amusing to consider the fate of a dragon that “consumed” one of the Great Rings. Presumably, nothing would happen: the ring would be destroyed by the dragon’s fire; but that’s the simplest (and probably correct) assessment. Imagine some big wyrm in the Withered Heath, eating a dwarf-lord, and just as he’s picking the last of the armor from between his fangs, – poof! – off to the wraith-world! So he’d be one richer, stronger, more persuasive, invisible dragon! (Probably not: Gandalf later told Frodo in that same conversation that, “It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough…” (Maybe the last was Smaug?)) It's just a thought. Quote:
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It is quite possible, by the way, that outside the two branches of the House of Elendil, few Men knew anything about the Rings of Power. Boromir and Faramir as sons of the Steward of the House of Anárion were certainly familiar with the information, and perhaps Théoden was, too; but it could hardly have been widespread knowledge. Elrond’s speeches at the Council of Elrond would indicate that information about the other Rings was pretty tightly controlled. I wonder if even the Númenóreans knew about them during the War between the Elves and Sauron midway through the Second Age. |
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#19 | |||||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
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Thank you, DPR!
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But I believe Saruman could only learn that the Dwarven settlement XXX, whose lord likely had a Ring, had been destroyed by a dragon. Now - was the Ring lost? Was it destroyed by the dragon? Was it swallowed? Was it kept in the dragon's hoard in his lair? Had Sauron got it from the Dragon later? I don't see how any of these questions could be answered. The info: "three Sauron got, four are destroyed" was a guess at best - communicated to the White council in Saruman's persuasive voice, so they believed it without question. ![]() However, Gandalf's estimation seems to be accurate, after all: the messenger from Mordor who came to Dain said: "Find it, and three rings that the Dwarf sires possessed of old shall be returned to you, and the realm of Moria shall be yours for ever." So Sauron, indeed, had at least three of the Seven. Therefore, I have another hypothesis. The Rings were somehow interconnected, so maybe with the loss of each Ring out of the 19, the wielders of the other Rings could feel it. Maybe all the Rings were losing some of their power with one of the 19 unmade, much like they lost ALL their power with the Ruling Ring unmade. Then the wielders of the Elven Rings could say with utmost surety: now there are only 15 rings + the One left in the world. But here we are writing fantasy, as there is little support for such an idea in Tolkien's work. Also such an idea leads to a corollary: had Celebrimbor mastered enough guts to destroy all the 19 back in Eregion, then the One would have lost its power and Sauron would have been either destroyed or shorn of a large part of his power. Quote:
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Isildur: "But how on Earth?" ![]() ![]() Gil-Galad: "Uhm, sorry.. he has this Ring, you know..." Isildur: "What Ring?" ![]() Gil-Galad: "Ahem, it is a long story. In Eregion long ago... ... ..." Isildur: "You, accursed hypocrites! So that's why the late King listened to Zigur so readily? That's why three of my noble ancestors suddenly turned all evil and transparent? Now THIS time I am not gonna fight Sauron alone to save your noble hindquarters, while you are busy singing your lays. Mobilize your pointy-eared loafers and join us, unless..." Last edited by Gordis : 09-03-2008 at 03:42 AM. |
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#20 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 19
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![]() I think that the nazgul in some ways was permanently bent to Saurons will, even after he lost the ring. I like the idea with some kind of autonomy during the first half of the third age but when Sauron was strong enough he could just call them and they would follow. He didn't have to capture them, he just had to become strong enough to be their undisputed master again.
He then kept the nine himself because without the one ring he couldn't dominate any possible new owner in the same way he dominated the nazgul. Any elf, man or wizard powerful enough to defeat a nazgul could cause great problems for Sauron if the victory included a ring of power. |
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