Theories on the Identity of the Witch-King

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Olmer

And, oh, yes, he WAS the king of Numenor! Tar-Ciriatan, in particular.
How I came to such conclusion? By painstaking deductions and calculations that brought my faint suspicions that Tolkien tried to camuflage this fact, but nevertheless left some mileposts leading to it.

Don't you think, Olmer it deserves a separate thread? There is quite a fan-lore about the WK. I have read Isilmo theory, Tar-Minastir theory, at least two Unidentified Prince theories and even Tol-Elmar theory. I admit Ciriatan is new to me.

I have some ideas of my own. Here they are in short.
1. I believe that the WK's real name would be erased from the records for sure (as they have done later with the poor cat-lover Beruthiel who was only guilty of not being to her hasband's tastes).
2. I believe The WK was the one who commanded the Numenorean army sent to rescue Gil-Galad around SA 1700, so at least he was a prince of the royal house.
3. I believe the elves kept all the info about the rings secret from their human rescuers and allies.
4. I believe Sauron, being defeated, swore allegiance to Numenor and gave rich tribute and gifts to Numenoreans to stop them from attacking Mordor. One of the gifts would have been an elven ring to the Numenorean commander. So Sauron practically did the same trick he repeated later with Ar-Pharazon.
What do you think of it?

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by gordis

Don't you think, Olmer it deserves a separate thread? There is quite a fan-lore about the WK. I have read Isilmo theory, Tar-Minastir theory, at least two Unidentified Prince theories and even Tol-Elmar theory. I admit Ciriatan is new to me.

I have some ideas of my own. Here they are in short.
1. I believe that the WK's real name would be erased from the records for sure (as they have done later with the poor cat-lover Beruthiel who was only guilty of not being to her hasband's tastes).
2. I believe The WK was the one who commanded the Numenorean army sent to rescue Gil-Galad around SA 1700, so at least he was a prince of the royal house.
3. I believe the elves kept all the info about the rings secret from their human rescuers and allies.
4. I believe Sauron, being defeated, swore allegiance to Numenor and gave rich tribute and gifts to Numenoreans to stop them from attacking Mordor. One of the gifts would have been an elven ring to the Numenorean commander. So Sauron practically did the same trick he repeated later with Ar-Pharazon.
What do you think of it?

Point by point you listed my reasons also. In some way we think alike .
1. Agree, the same as it was erased any mentions about The Witch of Cardolan, or made the records so confusing that nobody would think to sit down and sort it out.
2. Agree with correction: he was a heir of the crown.
3. Completely agee. This why theirs records deviating from the records of Gondor.
4. Yes, this was the way Sauron got the WK, the prince, who soon would take the throne. And he did not wait for too long, asking his father to move out.

Tar Minastir coming out clean of such accusation: he had never met with Sauron.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Point by point you listed my reasons also. In some way we think alike .
1. Agree, the same as it was erased any mentions about The Witch of Cardolan, or made the records so confusing that nobody would think to sit down and sort it out.
2. Agree with correction: he was a heir of the crown.
3. Completely agee. This why theirs records deviating from the records of Gondor.
4. Yes, this was the way Sauron got the WK, the prince, who soon would take the throne. And he did not wait for too long, asking his father to move out.

Tar Minastir coming out clean of such accusation: he had never met with Sauron.

Well we certainly think alike
1. What is the Witch of Cardolan?
2. He was certainly the one with the highest lineage in all of the army, otherwise he would not be the chief. Wasn't Ciriatan too young? He would be about 65, not exactly a baby, but still... (They lived 400 years). Perhaps it was Tar-Minastir's younger brother or a even his father (Isilmo) who was in charge?
3. You mean Tale of Years and UT - the Line of Erlos? They do deviate, but which is "elven" and which is "human"? And why?
4. Plausible. But IF you are right, why didn't Ciriatan bring Numenor to Sau's feet while he was the King? Perhaps Ciriatan proved to be the morsel too big to swallow even for Sauron? Why did he pass the sceptre and made people believe he died?

5.Another point is that I have a feeling that Erlond and Gandalf knew all too well who the WK was but kept it secret. And for a good reason, the WK was much closer relative to Erlond than Aragorn. Isn't it strange that the info about the Second nazgul Khamul was open, while nothing about the First was let out. Who cares about those Easterlings? They are evil anyway...

6.And the last thought. I believe Glorfindel and the WK were well acquainted in the Second Age. They must have come together to the ME from Numenor and fought side-by side against Sauron. That's why the WK was reluctant to fight Glorfindel and the latter has not tried to pursue him. And people normally don't make prophesies about the fate of total strangers they don't care about...

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by gordis

Well we certainly think alike
1. What is the Witch of Cardolan?
2. He was certainly the one with the highest lineage in all of the army, otherwise he would not be the chief. Wasn't Ciriatan too young? He would be about 65, not exactly a baby, but still... (They lived 400 years). Perhaps it was Tar-Minastir's younger brother or a even his father (Isilmo) who was in charge?
3. You mean Tale of Years and UT - the Line of Erlos? They do deviate, but which is "elven" and which is "human"? And why?
4. Plausible. But IF you are right, why didn't Ciriatan bring Numenor to Sau's feet while he was the King? Perhaps Ciriatan proved to be the morsel too big to swallow even for Sauron? Why did he pass the sceptre and made people believe he died?

5.Another point is that I have a feeling that Erlond and Gandalf knew all too well who the WK was but kept it secret. And for a good reason, the WK was much closer relative to Erlond than Aragorn. Isn't it strange that the info about the Second nazgul Khamul was open, while nothing about the First was let out. Who cares about those Easterlings? They are evil anyway...

6.And the last thought. I believe Glorfindel and the WK were well acquainted in the Second Age. They must have come together to the ME from Numenor and fought side-by side against Sauron. That's why the WK was reluctant to fight Glorfindel and the latter has not tried to pursue him. And people normally don't make prophesies about the fate of total strangers they don't care about...

1. Witch of Cardolan... You know, I'm a little bit buffled about this person.I clearly remember that long time ago,when I read the mention about her among evil people somewhere in "HOME", I just made a mental note that it's too many witches in Arnor for a comfort. Visually I remember the place in the book- in some of Tolkien's index references, but when I began to look for exact quote in my new book, I couldn't find it. So, this question stays open.
2.Never heard of Minastir's younger brother. He had older sister, thought, the Queen...
Isilmo ?... slight possibility. I place my bet on the son of Tar-Minastir, he was not older than Aragorn, in fact he would be at his prime time for actions.
3 "Tales of the Years" were the records of Merriadoc "obtained with assistance and information from Rivendell"(FOTR)
4. Actually, unlike other king's, his date of death is quite confusing. By my calculation he gave his sceptre at age 617, ruling for 382 years - twice than his other predecessors.I think it more than enough to make people begin to wonder.
Why he needed to bring Numenor to Sau's feet? He was not under his total control. As you know the prosess was a slow corruption and mainly depends on the strength and the greatness of person. Galadriel thought that she is strong enough to wield the ring without drastic consequences.
5. That's right, Elrond did know that the WK was his nephew 11 times removed.This why the dates, given to Merriadoc are incomplete. But Tolkien was strongly pointing on the fact that "The dates given are often conjectural, espesially for the Second Age, they DESERVES ATTENTION."(FOTR)
6 .Very interesting thought! It might be quite plausible assumtion.

[Maerbenn]

Originally Posted by Olmer

1. Witch of Cardolan... You know, I’m a little bit buffled about this person. I clearly remember that long time ago,when I read the mention about her among evil people somewhere in HOME, I just made a mental note that it’s too many witches in Arnor for a comfort. Visually I remember the place in the book—in some of Tolkien’s index references, but when I began to look for exact quote in my new book, I couldn’t find it. So, this question stays open.

Perhaps you remember it from this jotting among the drafts to ‘A Long-expected Party’ (published in HoMe VI: The Return of the Shadow):

They [Bilbo and his three Took nephews Odo, Frodo and Drogo] walk all night—East. Adventures: troll-like: witch-house on way to Rivendell.

[Gordis]

Hi, Olmer. We continue to agree with each other .

1. Witch of Cardolan...
If it is indeed in HOME, I can narrow your search a little. I am certain that there is nothing like that in vol. VI - IX. Nothing in UT as well. So the most likely place would be "Peoples of ME" which I haven't read.

Originally Posted by Olmer

2. Never heard of Minastir's younger brother. He had older sister, thought, the Queen...

You are mistaken here. Minastir was not the Queen's brother, but her nephew (Line of Erlos, UT). The Queen Tar-Telperien (born in 1320) had a younger brother Isilmo (date of birth unknown, but must be somewhere from 1330 to 1370). Minastir was Isilmo's eldest son (born in 1475), and he may have had a younger brother (why not?, normally kings had 2-3 children).

Therefore in 1700 when the fleet sailed, the dramatis personae in Numenor were:
The Queen was 380, she never married and, I believe, was a sort of Elisabeth I of England.
Her brother Isilmo must have been 365 - 330, so the old age was close, but still he had many good years before him. Moreover, at the time HE must have been the Queen's heir, not Tar-Minastir.
Minastir (heir's heir) was 225.
His younger brother (IF one existed) may have been around 200
Ciryatan was 66 (and was the heir of the heir of the heir)

So which one took the fleet to the war?
Hard to tell, actually. Not Minastir, if we believe the Tale of Years and the Line of Elros. But the sources do not say that it were Ciryatan or Isilmo either. NO NAME is given for the commander of the army! Queer?

I personally believe it was NOT Minastir, all we know about his character (learning elven lore and gazing westward) makes it very unlikely.

The hypothetical brother, IF he was the one who commanded the army AND got the Ring, would have tried later to dispose of Tar-Minastir and become the King. Nothing such has happened. OR it is not mentioned.

Isilmo remains likely IF he had previous military experience and sailed to ME. And he would be sorely tempted to get a way to prolong his life, much more than young Ciryatan. But the problem that no kin-strife ensued remains.

And you are right that Ciryatan is the likeliest choice, as he HAD sailed to ME before, it is a known fact.

So, in general I agree with you though I am aware of some difficulties.

Originally Posted by Olmer

Isilmo ?... slight possibility.

Some more about Isilmo theory (by Mark Crispin found at: http://groups.google.co.uk/group/alt...b2c299d319cb89)

Actually you probably know that (unlike us who know better ) most of the "researchers" looking for the WK's identity were supposing that the Elves DID pass all the Ring-info to Numenoreans.
So they were looking mostly for a FRUSTRATED person with a good claim to the throne. They were looking for a person whose rights were slighted and who may have hated the Royal family enough to turn consciously to Sauron. Hence Isilmo.

The Queen Telperien was not quite legitimate, as the custom (if not the law) demanded of the elder girls to refuse the scepter in favor of the younger brother. But as she remained unwed and had no children, it was the LAW this time to pass the scepter to her brother, and she didn't do that. Remember Ancalime HAD to marry to keep the right to the throne even under the new law made by Aldarion. So Isilmo had the RIGHT to be king.

The same limitations apply to the ICE theory of a "bad" Numenorean prince-youngest son of Ciryatan.

But I think that this approach is wrong. Tolkien explicitly states that the Ring was a snare for good ones, not a reward for bad ones. It was used to ensnare a person who would NEVER serve Sauron otherwise.

Originally Posted by Olmer

3. "Tales of the Years" were the records of Merriadoc "obtained with assistance and information from Rivendell"(FOTR)

And what is "the line of Elros in UT" then? Some elvish records corrected further? Or Gondor records?

Originally Posted by Olmer

4. Actually, unlike other king's, his date of death is quite confusing. By my calculation he gave his sceptre at age 617, ruling for 382 years - twice than his other predecessors .I think it more than enough to make people begin to wonder.

I gather you made this calculation from the Tale of Years alone, disregarding "The Line of Elros" in UT. Am I right? But then one of the Kings mentioned in "The Line of Elros" has NOT ruled at all! Which one?
I am afraid, the existence of this part of UT it is the biggest problem with your Ciry theory.

Originally Posted by Olmer

Why he needed to bring Numenor to Sau's feet? He was not under his total control. As you know the process was a slow corruption and mainly depends on the strength and the greatness of person.

Here is another problem. The elves took off their Rings the moment they perceived the existence of the One. Could a mortal wear his ring for 330 years (if not for 580 as you suppose) without falling completely under Sau's dominion? Seems quite unlikely.

Originally Posted by Olmer

6 .Very interesting thought! It might be quite plausible assumtion.

They knew each other all right, IMO. It is an inevitable conclusion IF the Witch-King commanded the Numenorean army in SA 1700. Glorfindel came to ME in the SA by way of Numenor to take part in this war (that was the final Tolkien decision about Glorfindel's history - see UT).

Very, very interesting discussion for me at least.

Please, Valandil, put it into a separate thread!

Maerbenn, thanks for the contribution. But what do you think on the main subject?

Strange that nobody else joins us. HEY, MOOTERS!

[Olmer]

Valandil!
Somehow the discussion of Boromir stirred into a very interesting subject.
I understand that splitting the threads is a such hard work , but can you move it into the new theread?

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Valandil!
Somehow the discussion of Boromir stirred into a very interesting subject.
I understand that splitting the threads is a such hard work , but can you move it into the new theread?

Whew! THAT was tough...

Yes - I almost did it earlier, at the first suggestion. It's certainly time now.

[Gordis]

Thanks, Valandil, for making it a separate thread!
I have little time now, so just a quick reply.

Originally Posted by Olmer

And I don't understand, are you trying to be too sly or too smart by testing me? Tar-Anducal has absolutely nothing to it ,and, unlike Tar-Ciryatan's, his dates don't have any discrepancy with the dates in other sources.

I NEVER mentioned Tar Anducal!
I mentioned Tar-Ancalime the daughther of Aldarion and Erendis (UT) who was the cause of the change of the laws of succession.

[Gordis]

Butterbeer, I can't find your post…Was it about lunatics?

Originally Posted by Olmer

But, any way, Minastir's younger brother is totally unbased assumption.

. I mentioned him because I remember reading some theory with him as the WK.
The same about Isilmo theory I posted the link to. You may argue against it, I don’t agree with it either, but at least it is elegant (explaining the sigil of Morgul) and witty. I like how it explains the WK's reaction to strong-headed women: since he was kept away from the throne by his headstrong sister Telperien, every time when he saw another woman of that kind he just gripped his mace and ...

Originally Posted by Olmer

I don't see any difficulties in my theory- all pieces just falling strangely in place. And of course you are wrong about the source of my calculation, you can't use just one source for comparing and deducting, I studied all information about Numenorians what possibly you can find in Tolkien's writings.

.
Well "The Line of Elros" in UT can't be a source of your calculations. It is as straightforward as a timetable.
Telperien 1320-1731
Minastir 1474-(1869)1873
Ciryatan 1634-(2029) 2035
Atanamir 1800-2221
Ancalimon 1986-2526
And so on

Originally Posted by Olmer

Actually, unlike other king's, his date of death is quite confusing. By my calculation he gave his sceptre at age 617, ruling for 382 years - twice than his other predecessors.

Where can you put that in the timetable above? For that you have to assume that some dates in the "Line of Erlor" were deliberately amended. So you HAVE to disregard this sourse.

I know, though, that in the Tale of Years there is a discrepant entry:
"2251 Tar-Atanamir takes the sceptre". Christofer Tolkien believes it to be a mistake amended in UT. You do rely on this, don’t you?

If so, Ciryatan lived 1634-2251 and here are your 617 years. I have solved your riddle!

But what about Atanamir then? In 2251 he would be 451. HE could hardly survive that long waiting for his eternally young father to kick the barrel? Or was he also a nazgul?

[Maerbenn]

I’m surprised that Valandil hasn’t posted this link yet: The name of the Witch-king; a proposed answer

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by gordis

Butterbeer, I can't find your post…Was it about lunatics?

well firstly, thanks Olmer! Appreciate that.

made me feel a lot better cheers!

I never considered you a raving lunatic anyway for what it's worth!

My respect.

Gordis: ... er .. no it wasn't about lunatics!

thanks for the thought, but best to leave thAT particular (thing) hanging in limbo ....

cheers anyway.

Sorry to post such personal non-on-subject post: i'll try to research it (identity of wk) but cannot see me getting the time to do so...

best
BB


BTW Gordis the quote: was it about lunatics?

well that has to be a classic!
Coming from nowhere (seemingly!) that really made me laugh!
I don't mean this in a bad way at all: but why did you jump to the conclusion it was about lunatics? God bless! that in itself was really funny!

[Olmer]

But let’s go back to the Ring of Power. To whom Sauron would give that so unique gift? Would it be anyone from the commanding staff? No way! What would he get from Isilmo, a few numenorian’s ships? His aim would be for a higher rank.
And would not it be a cruel irony to give such beautiful offering to the future king, the prince of his suzerain. What a great and creative way to pay back for his defeat! Of course, nobody knew about the real function of the ring as a convertor to Sauron’s will, so Ciryatan innocently and gladly accepted this small golden trinket, which was promised to aid him in acquiring of the great deeds. And just as an unsuspected carrier of deadly virus coming back to doomed because of him homeland, the prince came back to Numenor, and ”the shadow falls on Numenor“, the shadow of doom.
Why Tolkien put such ominous words when seems to be nothing was pointing on impending troubles? The war had been won, the victors are being busy establishing their dominion, Sauron was out of the picture for a while, and Tar -Minastir was a good king, who loved Eldar and explored the seas on the east… Why exactly at Tar-Minastir’s time? The foreboding for the bleak future of growing in power and prosperity Numenor would be in inconspicuous suggestion, understated by Tolkien, that on the Island has arrived something destructive and evil - the Ring of Power on the finger of King’s heir.
Slowly corrupting him, making him the most greediest and the most merciless future Ruler than all of the previous Kings of Numenor, at the same time the Ring made him a restless explorer and bold acquiror of new lands with such self-confidence, that just to be the prince was not enough for him, and in 1869 he made his father to surrender the scepter before the time he would do of his free will. Tar-Ciryatan is the King now, the Witch-King, but he doesn’t know of it, yet. The process of corruption was slow and mainly depends on the strength and the greatness of the person. And Ciryatan became a noteworthy king: the builder of the great fleet, the acquirer of enormous Numenorian wealth, the conqueror of new lands, the oppressor ….
Why, then, in his Annals Tolkien skips completely the mention of such king, who left more milestones of his accomplishments than many other kings? What was wrong with the picture? The picture was stained.
However, Tolkien provide us with another clue, saying that with Ciryatan’s becoming the king …”the first coming of the shadow upon the bliss of Numenor be seen” (UT)
The Ring gives to Tar-Ciryatan an enormous stamina, prolonging his life, but also converting him in his traits into Sauron alike -the cruel conqueror. In his time Numenor became an oppressor of Middle-earth, taking slaves and spoilers to the island.
Next to him is growing the prince Atanamir, who in his behavior took a lot from his father. Seeing his father’s vigor and strength at the age, when it supposed to be the waning of abilities, made him yearn for longer life. Also his desire to cling to the life amplified even more by the fact that he in reality gained the scepter in 2251 at the decline of his long life and he did not want to end his kingship and his life willingly, like Numenorian tradition required. He became the Unwilling, the first Numenorian king who was clinging to his life even when the life was ending in dotage and infirmity. Unfortunately, after crossing the point of normal life span, (and according to different sources he lived 421 - 451 years), the final process of numenorian’s aging is very fast…
Why exactly him Tolkien made an Unwilling? Because in front of him Atanamir had a good example when the death was cheated. In consistent with the given by Tolkien dates in “The tale of the years”, Tar-Ciryatan lived 617 years and even after his official resignation in 2029 he continued to hold the scepter, being the ruler for 382 yeas, twice longer than his other predecessors, which is more than enough to make people begin to wonder.
Did he manage to conceal his abnormally long living with help of the ring, of which knew only very close person - his son, or he became so ruthless that he did not give a flying pig for what others would dare to think about him, we could only guess, but seems that he and his son has had a joint ruling of the country. And it is Tolkien again who is impelling us to such idea.
In the “Acalabeth”(“The Silmarillion“) we have an interesting passage: “These things took place in the days of Tar-Ciryatan, and of Tar-Atanamir, his son”…What is “these things” Tolkien is talking about? He is talking about the conversation between Numenorian's King and the Messengers from Valar, which were sent to Numenor when Eldar snitched to the Valar about numenorian’s desire to see Aman. But “the days of Tar-Ciryatan and of Tar-Atanamir” comes out altogether in about 400. Definitely the messengers were not conversing the warning to the King that “the gift of Eru may not be gain-said”in friendly chit-chatting for such lengthy even for Fangorn’s standards time! The talk could last days, weeks, even months, but the whole lifetime…I don’t think so!
Since they had a conversation with one King, and the “things took place” at the time of Tar-Ciryatan ruling, it should be Tar-Ciryatan they would talk to, but Tolkien said the Messengers came to Tar-Atanamir, also the King. So it’s look like that at the same time there were too Rulers of Numenor.
Why they talked to Tar-Ciryatan’s son, and not to Ciryatan himself? Because the Messengers, (I think that they were the Elves from Aman, who else?!), being able to perceive the world of shadows, recognized that it would be useless to talk to Tar-Ciryatan about greatness of the Gift of Eru, for he have got another gift and he is already in condition beyond all redemption, kind like in old joke about the first sign of syphilis: got black and fell off…
I would dare to suggest that the Messengers in some way advised Tar-Ciryatan to leave the throne for his own good, and in 2251 Tar -Atanamir finally is taking the scepter, acquiring the sole kingship.
And (what a strange “coincidence”!) in the “Annals” Tolkien is registering that “about this time the Nazgul…first appear”! Not earlier, not later!

And so, here was the sad story of Tar-Ciryatan, one of the mightiest kings of Numenor, the defeater of Sauron, and how he inadvertently became the Witch-King, the wraith, who with help of the Ring of Power was forever destined to be Sauron’s servant. What a cruel and ironic twist of fate!
M.Kogan “Olmer”. May 2005.

I have permition to anybody to feel free to pull it apart.

[Gordis]

Bravo, Olmer! I really like your theory! Thanks for posting it.

I see some additional points supporting the theory:

After the 1700 War the men became estranged from the Elves. Why? Normally there should be closer friendship than before! There must have been something that came between the allies. Wasn't it the Ring? Perhaps the Elves told Ciryatan to give it back to them? Perhaps Ciryatan, when he finally learned from bitter experience about the existence of the One, was angry that the elves concealed this information?

Or was it also the separate peace treaty between the Numenoreans and Sauron?
After 1700 the "war never ceased between Sauron and the Elves" (Of the Rings of Power..). Yes, but it HAS ceased between Sauron and the Numenoreans:

Now [Sauron] learned that the kings of Númenor had increased in power and splendour, and he hated them the more; and he feared them, lest they should invade his lands and wrest from him the dominion of the East. But for a long time he did not dare to challenge the Lords of the Sea, and he withdrew from the coasts.
Yet Sauron was ever guileful, and it is said that among those whom he ensnared with the Nine Rings three were great lords of Númenórean race. And when the Úlairi arose that were the Ring-wraiths, his servants, and the strength of his terror and mastery over Men had grown exceedingly great, he began to assail the strong places of the Númenóreans upon the shores of the sea. (Akkallabeth).

It looks like Sauron was patiently waiting for the Ring to take over the Numenorean King. He waited and waited and grew angry, for it was much longer than he expected, but he had not attacked before the King turned into a wraith under his dominion. But, even so, the King has NOT brought Numenor to Sauron's feet. In a way Sauron was cheated.

Originally Posted by Olmer

His aim would be for a higher rank. …And would not it be a cruel irony to give such beautiful offering to the future king, the prince of his suzerain. What a great and creative way to pay back for his defeat!

Definitely. His aim must have been the King of Numenor, no more no less. He wanted not only the man as his servant but the kingdom as well.

Originally Posted by Olmer

..the prince came back to Numenor, and ”the shadow falls on Numenor“. ..Why Tolkien put such ominous words when seems to be nothing was pointing on impending troubles? …on the Island has arrived something destructive and evil - the Ring of Power on the finger of King’s heir.

Very likely.

Originally Posted by Olmer

Why, then, in his Annals Tolkien skips completely the mention of such king, who left more milestones of his accomplishments than many other kings? What was wrong with the picture? The picture was stained.

There is a problem here. You suggest that the "Line of Erlos" was "doctored". I agree, it must have been. But why in that way?
It is understandable that the date of Ciriatan's death was amended. It had to be, otherwise it would be crystal clear to any reader that Ciry was a nazgul. But why wasn't it mentioned that Cyriatan was the one who commanded the Numenoreans in the 1700 War? This fact was not at all damning, and VERY hard to conceal. Actually, if that was so, Ciryatan must have been a popular war hero for hundreds of years since. After all it was the first and the only big war the numenoreans were engaged in for the whole Second Age- 3000 years! And they were victorious, defeating Sauron himself and saving the "high and mighty" Elves. So why?

Originally Posted by Olmer

Next to him is growing the prince Atanamir, who in his behavior took a lot from his father. Seeing his father’s vigor and strength at the age, when it supposed to be the waning of abilities, made him yearn for longer life.

Actually his father must have looked completely unchanging, like Bilbo, "not a day older" than when he got the Ring. So it was a weird sight: an ever-young father (with the hint of transparency about him in later years) and an ancient-looking son . Everyone should have wondered and suspected some witchcraft.

Originally Posted by Olmer

Tar-Ciryatan lived 617 years and even after his official resignation in 2029 he continued to hold the scepter, being the ruler for 382 yeas, twice longer than his other predecessors, which is more than enough to make people begin to wonder.
Did he manage to conceal his abnormally long living with help of the ring, of which knew only very close person - his son, or he became so ruthless that he did not give a flying pig for what others would dare to think about him, we could only guess, but seems that he and his son has had a joint ruling of the country. And it is Tolkien again who is impelling us to such idea.

So you believe he officially resigned in 2029 to make things seem normal, but failed to die, instead he became ruthless and practically usurped his son's throne? Therefore Tar-Ciryatan's rule encompasses also Tar-Atanamir's?
I believe it is a well supported idea, congratulations, Olmer!

Originally Posted by Olmer

I would dare to suggest that the Messengers in some way advised Tar-Ciryatan to leave the throne for his own good, and in 2251 Tar -Atanamir finally is taking the scepter, acquiring the sole kingship.

…and dying the same year? Poor Atanamir! What a sad fate to be a nazgul's son!

Originally Posted by Olmer

And (what a strange “coincidence”!) in the “Annals” Tolkien is registering that “about this time the Nazgul…first appear”! Not earlier, not later!

Yes, he must have left for Mordor only when he had faded completely. It looks like he was the last of the nazgul to be overcome by the Ring. It has taken him a very long time to fade.

Great post, Olmer!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Why then did Sauron not take this chance to cause the Downfall of Numenor? Why wait for Ar-Pharazon.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Why then did Sauron not take this chance to cause the Downfall of Numenor? Why wait for Ar-Pharazon.

foresight on whomever would be most susceptible to his charming wit?

[CrazySquirrel]

Olmer, what an impressive piece of research!
Why won't you make a nice article, well beta-ed, and post it somewhere on the Web?

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Why then did Sauron not take this chance to cause the Downfall of Numenor? Why wait for Ar-Pharazon.

I think Gordis was right: Ciryatan has proved to be tough to swallow.
I think Sauron had no idea how the nine rings would really work before the nazgul became laboratory mice and textbook casas . I think he expected Ciryatan to become his nice and obedient servant in a couple of decades, but in reality he had to wait for 550 years. And still Ciryatan had enough will of his own to renounce the scepter and give it to his son and NOT TO DO anything drastic to Numenor. I believe Sauron was mad with the WK for that!
I think at the time Sauron didn't know that the wearing of the ring in itself doesn't promote loyalty to the Dark Lord, instead it causes the bearer to hate Sauron all the more. Please, remember the cases of Gollum and Frodo. They felt HATE for Sauron, not loyalty. Gollum is especially good as an example, as he has almost become a wraith.

Originally Posted by Gordis

So you believe he officially resigned in 2029 to make things seem normal, but failed to die, instead he became ruthless and practically usurped his son's throne? Therefore Tar-Ciryatan's rule encompasses also Tar-Atanamir's?

Why usurped? It looks like the father and the son were very much alike, perhaps they had good relations and Atanamir left his father in charge of Numenor whenever he sailed East?
Just a funny thought here... Ciriatan has got a son when he was already a nazgul. Perhaps Atanamir has become GENETICALLY corrupted?

[The Witch-King of Angmar]

Originally Posted by gordis

Don't you think, Olmer it deserves a separate thread? There is quite a fan-lore about the WK. I have read Isilmo theory, Tar-Minastir theory, at least two Unidentified Prince theories and even Tol-Elmar theory. I admit Ciriatan is new to me.

I have some ideas of my own. Here they are in short.
1. I believe that the WK's real name would be erased from the records for sure (as they have done later with the poor cat-lover Beruthiel who was only guilty of not being to her hasband's tastes).
2. I believe The WK was the one who commanded the Numenorean army sent to rescue Gil-Galad around SA 1700, so at least he was a prince of the royal house.
3. I believe the elves kept all the info about the rings secret from their human rescuers and allies.
4. I believe Sauron, being defeated, swore allegiance to Numenor and gave rich tribute and gifts to Numenoreans to stop them from attacking Mordor. One of the gifts would have been an elven ring to the Numenorean commander. So Sauron practically did the same trick he repeated later with Ar-Pharazon.
What do you think of it?

Was it ever confirmed that he was a numenorian or just a man?

Otherwise there pretty good theories

[CrazySquirrel]

Originally Posted by The Witch-King of Angmar

Was it ever confirmed that he was a numenorian or just a man?

Strictly speaking no, there is no Tolkien quote stating that plainly.
But the first time Tolkien has invented the Witch King's character, he described him as "a renegade wizard from Numenor".That was before Tolkien developed the concept of Wizards being all maiar. It is in the "Return of the Shadow" HOME, I think.
And then of course, he is the tallest of the Nine, and the Captain of the Nine. And we know that 3 of the 9 were from Numenor. So most probably Witchy is a numenorean. The Second to the Chief, Khamul, was an Easterling.

[Alcuin]

Three of the Nazgûl were Númenóreans; although which three of the nine is never stated. CrazySquirrel is correct: we generally assume that the Witch-King was one of these three, and I further assumed that one of them was a member of the House of Elros.

Gordis makes good points in the quote provided by The Witch-King of Angmar. If I touch upon them,
1. Berúthiel was removed from the lists apparently because she fell into (or continued) some practice of darkness after she married Tarannon Falastur. I suppose her exile was the Gondorian equivalent of a royal divorce, and I note that a multi-generational series of wars with the old Black Númenórean kingdoms to the South followed this marital rupture. For the Númenóreans to remove the name of the Witch-King from their records in a similar manner would probably require that they knew his fate and disapproved of it.
2. The Witch-King might have been the military commander sent to Gil-galad’s succor, but it is more likely that he was a follow-on commander at one of the garrisons left behind. It’s easier for Sauron to plan his revenge and trap him that way.
3. Tolkien intimates that the Eldar kept the information about the Rings closely held. It may be that even Tar-Minastir failed to understand completely what the fighting was about. The Númenóreans were assisting the Eldar of Middle-earth as a matter of principle and in respect of their ancient alliance during the First Age. And yes, I agree that this “failure to communicate” probably made entrapping the three Númenóreans a lot easier.
4. Sauron swore no allegiance to Númenor until he humbled himself before Ar-Pharazôn at the end of the Second Age. He swore vengeance against them instead, and retreated from the coasts where the Númenóreans were strongest militarily. Had he sworn allegiance to Númenor and sent them rich gifts, the chroniclers would have noted it, and Gil-galad would have warned them against accepting either. Again, the Númenóreans knew who Sauron was in the First Age: the enemy of their ancestors, and the Maia who tried to kill Beren and who brought about the destruction of Dorthonion. Gil-galad knew who he was in the Second Age, and so did his Númenórean allies: that’s one of the main reasons the old alliance was rekindled: they faced a common, very dangerous enemy together.