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05-06-2005, 02:57 PM | #1 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Gollum and Sauron
Let's have some talk about Gollum and his relationship with Sauron. Gollum's story after he lost his ring and before his appearance in Moria is not too well known. How was he able to follow hobbits to Esgaroth? Why did he go to Mordor? Has he become Shelob's friend before or after his capture? How was he captured? Has he been to Barad Dur? What did he really told Sauron under torture and how much he concealed? Has he escaped or was he released and, if so, what for? Why wasn't he followed? Or was he? Why did Sauron want him again after his talk with Gandalf?
Any ideas? |
05-06-2005, 03:00 PM | #2 |
The Intermittent One
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i think sauron wanted to recapture gollum to interrogate him to see if he had told gandalf anything of vital import
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05-06-2005, 03:29 PM | #3 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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As I've said before I believe Gollum was captured in Mirkwood by the servants of Khamûl, and taken to Barad-Dûr from there. I think he told Sauron all the useful info he really knew about Bilbo, Shire and Baggins. I don't think telling him Bilbo was good at riddles would have been much help.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
05-07-2005, 07:01 AM | #4 |
Elf Lord
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from memory gandalf intimates Gollum was drawn To Mordor presumably by sauron ( he kind of felt the call etc)
my (initial) ideas (from top of my head): he sneaked around for a while, thus got to know of (not know as such?) Shelob but was then captured and tortured, presumably in barad dur where no doubt he told ALL he knew eventually i guess sauron released him as a seeker, and informant who feels the lure and call of the ring and is driven to find it: presumably to be followed or kept tabs on but he slinked away and threw off the watchers easily in the wild. I do not think he would have escaped! How the hell did he get into Moria though: and what did he live on? I don't think he could have sneaked in the Eastern entrance and navigated and not got lost pretty much all the way through to the western gate, nor stood there the other side of the misty mountains at the western entrance and said "mellon!" etc? it makes you think if frodo was pre-ordained for this task then so was Gollum by the same token? Last edited by Butterbeer : 05-07-2005 at 07:02 AM. |
05-07-2005, 07:11 AM | #5 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Being drawn to Mordor by Sau's call is more or less what Gandalf thought, but that seems very strange to me somehow.
He got to know Shelob personally, not of her. In UT it is written that Gollum did not say all he knew, "what he knew he falsified". "Utterly indomitable he was, except by death" Sau reliesed him to seek the Ring yes, but didn't he understand the danger in the case if Gollum will be questioned by the Wize? In UT it is written that Gollum has hidden in Moria from the nazgul who were making their pleasure trip along the Vales of Anduin in the summer of 3018. Last edited by Gordis : 05-07-2005 at 07:13 AM. |
05-07-2005, 07:26 AM | #6 | |
Elf Lord
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forgive me for being dense here but what could gollum have told the wise other than he'd had a friendly fire-side chat with Sauron and that the Nine were punting up and down the anduin in staw hats, cream blazers accompanied by chilled champagne and strawberries (with cream)? just while sauron went to the Optician of course! by this time they (the wise) knew it was Sauron? I'd need to look at the timescale: how quickly did the Riders since gollum's capture seek out the Shire? from memory it seems an absurdly long time (basing this very roughly from memory on time Gandalf and Aragorn had between finding gollum and the flight to the fords etc?) did you post elswhere that the Wk would have known where the Shire was from Angmar (or his Northern Horticultual period)? If so: seems conclusive WK is not quite the 100% Team-Sauron player is he? How long would it have taken Sauron to find the Shire anyway: he must have been able to make a good guess? I.e North west?? or west of the mountains at least? I still think he may have been tempted (THE WK) to master the One if he had got it in the North: if he mastered the One: what worry the Nine? Or anyone wearing the nine? (but thats another thread) |
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05-07-2005, 12:26 PM | #7 | |
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As what he lived on... probably on meat jerky of orc's. |
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05-07-2005, 02:23 PM | #8 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Well in the Hobbit I think it said that when he could catch fish he ate Orcs, so maybe he did the same thing in Moria.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
05-07-2005, 02:24 PM | #9 |
Elven Warrior
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In UT we read that Gollum entered Moria from the eastern side and that he could not leave from the western side because he did not know there was an exit that way although he was hidden close to it when the company of the nine entered.
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05-07-2005, 02:31 PM | #10 | |||||||||
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Sincerely, Anthony 'Many are my names in many countries,' he said. 'Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkûn to the Drarves; Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incánus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.' Faramir What nobler employment, or more valuable to the state, than that of the man who instructs the rising generation? Cicero (106BC-43BC) |
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05-07-2005, 04:28 PM | #11 |
Elf Lord
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[QUOTE=mithrand1r]Wouldn't that be " . . . by the same tolkien?
Few indeed Mithrandir are the times i do not use "..." |
05-07-2005, 06:42 PM | #12 | ||||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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It looks like Gollum came all by himseld slowly and not very conciously. Gollum must have been all around the confines of Mordor, for 37 years, first close to Cirith Ungol worshipping Shelob, then he seems to wander to Morannon (Why and what for?). It looks like Gollum was captured on the road east of Morannon "Back a little, and round a little' – his skinny arm waved north and east – `and you can come on hard cold roads to the very gates of His country... His Eye watches that way all the time. It caught Sméagol there, long ago." As for Gollum's exit it was by Cirith Ungol and Sauron ordered to let him go. Quote:
Now the question: What did Gollum really tell Sauron? It must have been not only "Baggins" and "Shire" but also "Esgaroth". Otherwise why would Sauron send a nazgul-messenger to Dain asking for the Ring or news of Baggins? Quote:
Sauron learned that Baggins from the Shire stole the Ring from Gollum in the Misty Mountains and that Baggins and a company of dwarves travelled to Esgaroth to get Smaug's treasure. So how knowing this could Sauron think that the Shire was in the Vales of Anduin? If a company travelling from the Shire to Esgaroth passes over (or under) the Misty Mountains then the Shire must be on the West side of the Mountains, not in the Vales! Was Sauron really so dumb? Had he no map? Quote:
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05-07-2005, 06:45 PM | #13 | |
The Intermittent One
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05-07-2005, 07:00 PM | #14 |
Elf Lord
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you seem to be one post behind there Gordis!
C'MON KEEP UP! i'll not bang anymore questions off since you put so much hard work into answering them! did you find the link useful: there's all sorts of calenders and what not on there : was the first link on my search too! well i agree with alot of it: just not on the hypothetical Flower Boy V Bath Boy contest. Best BB PS LCOU: good point the Master of E if caught would have known more: if it were me i'd a sent the Nazgul to Esgaroth straight away after Gollum shrieked "Shire" "Baggins" "Esgaroth" etc on winged messengars and interogated some folk up there to find out accurately where the Shire was. Hey hindsights great eh? We all forget how confident Sauron was and how hopeless it looked to everyone else barring using the ring (sauron's main fear and indeed expectation) Last edited by Butterbeer : 05-07-2005 at 07:05 PM. |
05-07-2005, 10:12 PM | #15 | |
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Hmmm... did Sauron, W-K, et al, have any reason to think that Hobbits even WERE small people? I forget now...
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05-08-2005, 02:13 AM | #16 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Ohh, yesterday's posting frenzy! No I can't keep up, Butterbeer, not at this rate! Thank you for the quote! Nice site, I havn't seen it before.
Maybe Sau is a niave wet behind the ears completely un-paranoid kind of Evil Lord? - Nay, he is paranoid all right! And too over-confident, IMHO, believing that nobody can know more than he himself does. Good point about the Master of Esgaroth, LCOU Many good points in other people messages also. Thanks about info on Moria gates, Olmer. Didn't know it before Quote:
About hobbits, here is the quote from UT: "Sauron's fears were much allayed when he perceived from Gollum's account that Baggins must have been a creature of the same sort. Gollum would not know the term "Hobbit," which was local and not a universal Westron word. He would probably not use "Halfling" since he was one himself, and Hobbits disliked the name. That is why the Black Riders seem to have had two main pieces of information only to go on: Shire and Baggins." |
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05-08-2005, 02:52 AM | #17 | |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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05-08-2005, 11:50 AM | #18 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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To be exact there are four versions of the Hunt for the Ring (UT).
In all the versions Sauron, after threatening the nazgul, sent them to Saruman. In A and B Saruman denied knowledge of the Shire but it was Grima who betrayed Saruman and told them "The land of the Halflings (is) west through the Gap of Rohan yonder, and then north and a little west, until the next great river bars the way; the Greyflood it is called. Thence from the crossing at Tharbad the old road will lead you to the borders. 'The Shire,' they call it" In C Saruman told them that the Shire "is northwest from here some six hundred miles, on the borders of the seaward Elvish country". In A, B and C versions later in Eriador the nazgul captured a Dunlending spy of Saruman with maps and lists of names including Baggins. |
05-10-2005, 02:02 PM | #19 | |
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The axes hewed Forlong as he fought alone and unhorsed; and both Duilin of Morthond and his brother were trampled to death when they assailed the mumakil,leading their bowmen close to shoot at the eyes of the monsters. Neither Hirluin the fair would return to Pinnath Gelin, nor Grimbold to Grimslade, nor Halbarad to the northlands,dour-handed Ranger. Those that would not return home, page830-831, The Battle of the Pelennor Fields, The Return of the King |
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05-10-2005, 02:29 PM | #20 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Whichever you find interesting, strider8!
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Last edited by Gordis : 05-10-2005 at 02:31 PM. |
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