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#1 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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Filibusters!
The Republicans are apparently trying to change Senate procedural rules (which is not a big deal - they're just procedural rules) to break the Democratic filibusters against Pres. Bush's judicial nominees, so that the Senate can give every nominee an up-or-down confirmation vote, as they should be able to. The problem is that judicial nominees should receive an up-or-down vote, and a simple majority will OK them. However, filibusters require a 60-vote bloc to kill them off, so senators can read the phone book week after week and call it "debate" and force a vote to NOT be taken.
Here's an article about it. I've bolded some of the sections that I find to be more relevant. There's some posturing by both sides, but let's look at the actual data. Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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#2 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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and another article:
Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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#3 |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
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Yes the old Nuclear Option. The republicans are asking for serious trouble now. I guess all that mumbling about a one party state was true. 214 nominies and 10 extreme right wing nominies were blocked by the democrats (thank god!) and suddenly we need to scrap the age old rules of the congress? Pretty sad in my opinion. Why not just get it over with and declare marshall law already. If its not about following the democratic rules of the land then why pretend. Why not just have Bush impose whatever decree he wants on us without recourse. If getting these extremists into the courts is important enough to you to stop the vast majority of business within the congress then dont say I didnt warn you. Did the democrats ever actually change the rules so that they could get everything their way and impose things on the american people when they held the house and senate for decades? I dont recall. Correct me if Im wrong.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 03-16-2005 at 05:44 PM. |
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#4 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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What about the quotes from Democrats opposing filibusters for judicial nominees?
How is Bush imposing his views on us? Did Bush somehow engineer all those Republican senators getting put into office? We're talking about senators, who were voted into office by the people of the USA, being free to vote according to the Constitution. We're not scrapping "age-old" rules in Congress - they've been changed before, and by Democrats! The article notes Sen. Byrd's changes to procedures, so yes, it appears you're wrong. What do you think about the idea of filibusters - I"m not talking real, honest debate, I'm talking reading the phonebook to block a legal vote as outlined in the Constitution.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 03-16-2005 at 08:42 PM. |
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#5 | ||
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
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Quote:
Quote:
The filibuster is a time-honored Senate procedure that prevents a bare majority of senators from “running roughshod” as a well known republican once put it. It was PURPOSEFULLY put in place as a check in our grand system of checks and balances. Controversial legislation or apointments were never supposed to be rammed through without a whimper of protest. There was supposed to be DELIBERATE and SUBSTANTIAL interaction and compromise between the varying points of view in congress. And you want to talk about hypocrisy. Have a look at your OWN party I say. Republican leaders are suddenly claiming that judicial nominees are entitled to an up or down vote now that they are in power. When the democrats were in power republicans filibustered Clinton's choice for surgeon general and forced him to choose another. And your beloved Bill Frist, the CURRENT Senate majority leader, who now finds judicial filibusters so offensive, once lead one against Richard Paez who was a Clinton appeals court nominee. So spare us this OH THOSE DIRTY DEMOCRATS talk. Politicians will be politicians no matter what party they come from. Its just the republicans have decided that they are going to do what they want without following the normal rules of the game anymore. And once again they call themselves moral… Do this and good bye to unanimous consent in congress. Do you know what kind of effect that would have? MOST things are passed unanimously and quietly and account for the 98% of the daily work of the congress. Its how things get done on the hill and in this country. But because the republicans want to have their cake and eat it too they are willing to risk bogging down EVERY procedure, EVERY vote that comes along. All because they want to ram down the throat of the democrats 10 out of 214 nominees so extreme that even many republicans are leery of risking civility in congress to force these people in: William Myers is a former lobbyist for the mining and ranching industries. He is an anti-environmental extremist of the highest order and one who OTHER MAINSTREAM judges have described as “lacking the evenhandedness necessary to be a federal judge.” Janice Rogers Brown has called the New Deal a “socialist revolution that should be rolled back completely”. She has a clear record of hostility to fundamental civil and constitutional rights. She is also the dream judge for the Enron sect. She has consistently sought to expand the freedom of corporations to make false or misleading statements without any effective legal mechanism for holding them accountable. And you think this person shouldn’t be blocked from the federal courts at all costs? she would be an unmitigated disaster. And anyway do you really want to take such drastic and unprecedented steps when it could come back to work AGAINST you in just two or four or six or eight etc… years? Do you really think your party will hold the majority for ever? Seems rather short sighted to say the least if you ask me…. Thank god a few level headed republicans not bent on destroying the US congress just to one up the democrats are wavering about actually voting for this nuclear option. Without them they wouldn’t have the votes to do it and it would go down to defeat.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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#6 |
Word Santa Claus
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,922
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It should be noted that the reason so many judicial slots are open is that Republicans threatened the same action on President Clinton's nominees. Also, that the record for the longest filibuster in the history of the Senate is held by one Strom Thurmond, who reportedly forced the Senate to allow him to go to the bathroom and still continue his filibuster because he'd have urinated on the Senate floor otherwise. So, it's a grand old bipartisan tradition.
And I don't believe THIS rule has been changed in a long time: it isn't like other Senate procedural rules that are tinkered with occasionally. Filibuster is a time-honored process. And it is clearly in line with the Federalist Papers - the whole concept of avoiding the tyranny of the majority. Now this is not to say that every single Bush nominee should BE filibustered. But the nuclear option is justly named. It's a radical, extreme change to a very old rule just because it happens to be inconvenient in one case. P.S. There is no "legal requirement for approving judges" other than whatever procedural rules are in place. The Constitution calls for "advice and consent," which is never defined as a 51-vote, 60-vote, 100-vote or any other majority. It's just happens that filibusters have been set at 3/5 of the chamber for a long time, and that that is a larger hump than a vote on a bill(1/2 + 1 vote) or, say, a motion to hear testimony (1/3 of the chamber). The motion is technically called "closure," and it required 3/5 to pass. Which is generous, since in committee in the Senate the equivalent motion takes 2/3. So, it isn't like there is some age-old 51-vote structure that would be reinstated: it would be a major change. EDIT: Motion, not movement, is the correct term. Gah.
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Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall. Last edited by Count Comfect : 03-17-2005 at 02:27 AM. |
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#7 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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Quote:
![]() IRex, my point is that Bush can nominate all he WANTS; but these judges have to be APPROVED by the Senate, and the senators are voted in by the PEOPLE. Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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#8 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
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This administration seems to be setting new heights for unashamed irony. I particularly liked Bush's recent comment to Syria about how you can't hold free and fair elections in an occupied country (meaning Lebanon)!
They basically vetoed everything for the last 6 years Clinton was in power. As CC said, using the self same tactics. Checks and balances matter. |
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#9 | |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
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Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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#10 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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I just re-read the thread, and Count, your posts were informative and fair; I really enjoyed reading them.
You, OTOH, Rexy, seem to only be mad at Republicans, and to accuse me of changing my tune when the Dems are in the majority. I repeat that I think unlimited filibuster is wrong, no matter WHO has the majority. I can go with long, extensive debate, but not unlimited nonsense that prevents a vote. I see some of your points, Count, but it seems that the Dems are abusing it in a way the Reps didn't, because as far as I can tell, NO judicial nominee with majority support has been prevented from getting a vote until the Dems started doing it. It seems that the Reps blocked Clinton's nominee for AG or whatever Count said, but that was it. Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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#11 |
An enigma in a conundrum
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 6,476
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Ahh, a Mel Gibson fan or is it a displaced Scott?
![]() The people of the USA have been cheated out of swift justice (I know an oxymoron) by this tactic of delay. The judges have been and are needed to help break the log jam of cases in federal courts. Lastly, the R. did not do this to Clinton as it is being done to W. Last edited by Spock : 04-22-2005 at 12:53 PM. |
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#12 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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Quote:
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__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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