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03-02-2005, 11:38 PM | #1 |
Elven Warrior
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Did Saruman die? And what of Saruman's ring?
So we know that in the Scouring of the Shire Saruman "dies". His body goes up in smoke and the smoke turns towards Valinor, but did Saruman actually die?
We know that Gandalf's essence somehow survived the Balrog and was sent back. Did Saruman's essence also survive? (and who knows whether he would be sent back) A separate but related point is "what happened to the ring that Saruman made?". Sauron's ring allowed Sauron to life in spirit form in Middle Earth. Did Saruman's ring have the same power? What powers exactly did Saruman's ring have? |
03-03-2005, 12:14 AM | #2 |
"The Bomb"
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When Saruman was killed, I think it's a good bet that he stayed dead. Gandalf was sent back after Moria because he had not yet completed the task that Eru assigned to him (which was fulfilled when the Ring was destroyed). I think Saruman's task was actually to become corrupt and shift the balance of good and evil in the world for a while. Which yeah was bad but ultimately necassary to see Merry and Pippin hardened by the Uruk-hai and friends with the ents, who, not coincidentally I expect, brought about Saruman's destuction right as he reached the height of his glory. If I'm wrong about what his task was, and he'd been sent to work as a good power, Eru probably dubbed him too corrupt and unworthy to return to ME, whereas Gandalf clearly proved himself useful.
That's a guess, of course. I don't even know if Eru or Mandos would have made that decision, but it sounded good as I typed it. Either way I never thought about what happens to his ring.
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03-03-2005, 09:01 AM | #3 | ||
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And saruman doesn't have a ring, gandalf did but it wa a gift.
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03-03-2005, 10:10 AM | #4 |
AngAdan
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Saruamn was a Maiar, with only a part of his being invested in his physical body. The description of his deaths, with a visible eminence of his spirit being dispersed by a west (from the Valar) wind may indicate that some additional action was taken to punsih his spirit after his body's death. He very liekly be so weakened that he will be unable for long ages to assume a physical form.
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03-03-2005, 10:47 AM | #5 |
The Supreme Lord of The Northern Eagles
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I thought maybe he went to the halls of Mandos, but after reading Leftys post, I'm not so sure.
I think, even if he was strong enough, that the other Valar would deny him to take a physical form. Could the Valar keep him in some sort of jail, or other to punish him, as Lefty says? this make me wonder, where do all the higher followers of Morgoth go when they are dead? Sarumann wasn't as bad, or was he? And as Me points out, I've never heard about Sarumann having a ring before.
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03-03-2005, 11:16 AM | #6 | |
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Saruman the white? i am no longer the white, white serves as a starting point, white cloth may be dyed, white paper may be overwritten, i am saruman of many colours, saruman ring-maker the above is from memory, so sorry if it's slightly out in his studies of the rings, saruman discovered the art himself, and used it to fashion rings of his own, we are not sure how many he made, or what powers they bestowed upon the wearer, but we know that he did make (a) ring(s) |
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03-03-2005, 11:28 AM | #7 |
Elven Warrior
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To follow-up on what Chrys says.
In the LotR it says quite clearly (I think it is during the white council) that Saruman betrayed us and made his own ring |
03-03-2005, 05:13 PM | #8 | ||
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Thread killer Ring smith Merry Christmas! They'd never say that (Part 2) What happened to the dragon? |
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03-03-2005, 06:48 PM | #9 | ||
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Quote:
p. 251 in my version (all of LOTR in one big book) Quote:
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Sincerely, Anthony 'Many are my names in many countries,' he said. 'Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkûn to the Drarves; Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incánus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.' Faramir What nobler employment, or more valuable to the state, than that of the man who instructs the rising generation? Cicero (106BC-43BC) Last edited by mithrand1r : 03-03-2005 at 06:58 PM. |
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03-03-2005, 06:49 PM | #10 |
The Intermittent One
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the thing we don't know is how many he made, and what powers they bestowed, now that is something i would like to know!
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03-03-2005, 11:30 AM | #11 | |||||
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This is the scene where Saruman is killed in the book: RotK p. 264-5 Quote:
For a moment in wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing. Indicates that his spirit form died also, or at least was banished to the Void or something. What do you guys think?
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03-03-2005, 11:33 AM | #12 |
The Intermittent One
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i believe that saruman was banished into the void, i also believe that was sauron's fate also, so the three attempted dark lords were banished away until the final battle, in which shall end the world, or so legend is told, melko, sauron and curunir with orcs, against valar, maiar, eagles, eldar, avari, khazad, onodrim and tom bombadil
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03-03-2005, 12:37 PM | #13 | |
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03-03-2005, 03:34 PM | #14 | |||
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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03-03-2005, 04:32 PM | #15 |
The Intermittent One
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no, but there are scattered references to 'the great battle', after which the elves will yelp yavanna, and the dwarves will help aule to rebuild arda IIRC, except that there will be no men afterwards for their fate is other than that of the world within
so, back to topic Saruman describes himself as Saruman Ring-maker |
03-03-2005, 01:55 PM | #16 | |
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Maybe I'm wrong...
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03-03-2005, 07:37 PM | #17 | |
AngAdan
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Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," |
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03-03-2005, 09:48 PM | #18 |
Elven Warrior
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Is it not true that the Maiar are all Ainur. To be a little more specific they are of the same form of Ainur as the Valar and Valier but of less stature!? It says that only the greatest iof the Valar were the Aratar. So with that understanding Saruman could take physical form without any approval from the Aratar. Am I wrong?
Anyhow when Curumo dies his physical, or Middle-Earth form dies leaving only his Valar-Maiar form behind. With this form he no doubt tries to return to Valinor but in doing so finds that the Aratar are wrathful for his greed and failure to accomplish his true goal. The Aratar send Curumo away from Valinor possibly to remain in Middle-Earth, with no power, untill the end of that world, or to another place... possibly the void. I think also that when Curumo died in Middle-Earth he had already a weakend spirit due to his ring making. We know for fact that Curumo was attempting to create his own ring of power, so, if Sauron used part of his own essence to form the ring, would not Curumo need to do something similar?
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03-04-2005, 02:53 AM | #19 | |
Elven Warrior
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So if Saruman did the same thing, there is at least a possiblity that Saruman cannot really be banished from Middle Earth until his ring is destroyed |
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