|
02-15-2005, 02:12 AM | #1 |
avocatus diaboli
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Himring
Posts: 1,582
|
Gandalf the White
A new annoying, semi-philosophical question for you to ponder! Aren't you so very lucky?
"Yes, I am white now," said Gandalf. "Indeed I am Saruman, one might almost say, Saruman as he should have been" (The Two Towers, The White Rider). At first glance, I don't think there is anything extraordinary in this quote. Ironic, yes; especially remarkable, no. However, on second thought, I wonder what exactly is meant by this line. How can he almost be Saruman? In essence, the two of them appear to be completely different. Saruman is a Maia of Aulë, one concerned primarily with skill. Gandalf, on the other hand, dwelt in Lórien but was taught by Nienna. To me, their backgrounds seem completely different. It is almost like saying... that Finarfin is Fëanor as he should have been... Am I analysing this quote too much? Does it simply mean that Gandalf has been sent back to play the role that Saruman should have filled? Or is the nature of the Maiar different and more... fluid, for lack of a better word, than I had imagined? Just what sort of transformation did Gandalf truly undergo?
__________________
~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~
Neil Gaiman |
02-15-2005, 10:11 AM | #2 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
|
Gandalf achieved what Saruman could have achieved. However, Eru gave his creatures free will. Gandalf was the only one of the Istari who achieved the goals for which they had been sent. The two blue Istari pass out of the story, though there are interesting speculations about their achievements or lack of them on some threads here. Radagast the Brown became over-enamoured of the birds, beasts and creatures (non-sentient) of Middle Earth. Saruman became enamoured of the way he would run the world and the power to accomplish that, secondarily overcome by the lust for that power in the Ring rather than Eru. Gandalf was the only one who remained true to the mission by his choices. It is true that he may not have been the best and brightest of the Istari, his humility often suggests that is how he views himself, but in this sentence we see what faithfulness to Eru can accomplish - even through the apparent catastrophe of self-sacrifice and death.
Had the Istari remained true to Eru and their mission, many calamities might have been avoided. Tolkien makes again obvious that choices make the man, the hobbit, the elf, the dwarf, and the Istari and Maiar and Ainur. Choose wisely! And know that even so for much gain to one's self, society, or world, much must be ventured and nothing is assured save by such hopeful faith! edit: It is instructive to read this passage against Saruman's words to Gandalf when the latter was captive at Isenguard and Galadriel's temptation ( or re-temptation to a previous error, in fact). Thus Tolkien gives us pictures of the Saruman, tempted and falling into self-will, Galadriel, fallen and repentant and redeeming her self in her refusal of the Ring, and Gandalf, the one who though tempted remains true. It was after the Silmarillion became available that this meditation became clear. The great background of Creation, fall of the rebellious Ainur, and history of elves, dwarves, and men was needed to put it all together.
__________________
Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 02-15-2005 at 10:20 AM. |
02-15-2005, 03:07 PM | #3 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Darkness
Posts: 1,211
|
perhaps... If Olorian had been appointed as head of the istari before they left Valinor he would have been wearing white...
And, when he got back from Valinor after a little balrog induced side trip, he was the head of the istari, because Saruman had been revoked due to his treachery... But if you remember, Gandalf had some difficulty recalling his "mortal" life. The istari "appeared" as aged men. But that was not their true form. It wasn't even their chosen form. It's possible that their forms were chosen for them, and they were given 'roles' to play. Saruman chose not to play his role in the intended manner, so a new player was sent. It happened to be Olorian, this time garbed as "the white". It's definately more than a mere role, however, if you are given a new body to inhabit....
__________________
I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... Last edited by Blackheart : 02-15-2005 at 03:13 PM. |
02-15-2005, 11:33 PM | #4 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 198
|
According to unfinished tales Manwe himself selected Olorin (Gandalf) to go as the third messenger to Middle Earth. Olorin replied that he was too weak for the task and that he feared Sauron. Manwe replied "all the more reason he should go" and he commanded Olorin to do so. Varda then looked up and said "not as the third" and Saruman remembered it.
Saruman's ability to succeed in the task was in question right from the beginning at least by Manwe and Varda and probably others as well. I don't think His failure was much of a surprise to the "wise". Cirdan gave Gandalf the ring of fire and Galadriel wanted him to head the council so whatever Manwe and Varda saw was also seen right away in ME by the Elves as well. It is also very "Tolkien" to have the strongest and proudest fail while the humble and weaker succeed because of a selfless devotion to duty. Last edited by squinteyedsoutherner : 02-15-2005 at 11:41 PM. |
02-15-2005, 11:50 PM | #5 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 421
|
I actually think that JRRT is equating role with essence in this quote. So after Gandalf's coming back from Moria he takes the role of Saruman and therefore he is Saruman (almost)
|
02-16-2005, 06:28 AM | #6 |
Sapling
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 13
|
i agree what has been said on the original mission of the Istari.
because Saruman went beyond the original mission of help by giving advise, spiritual support and encouragement for the people of middle-earth, and misused his freedom to gain power for himself by actively taking part in the matters, he "fell", and Gandalf moved up one "rank". just do add another perspective, note that Gandalf did not push in, but tried to convince Saruman of his duty. so Gandalf was both true in keeping the original mission and the group hierarchy. he did not choose by himself to become Gandalf the White. that seems to be an important point IMHO. |
02-16-2005, 01:59 PM | #7 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Darkness
Posts: 1,211
|
Quote:
I'm not referring to the white counsel, but the istari themselves. And there seems to have been a ranking involved, else why would it matter what color Gandalf returned as? Literary devices are a side note, it's disingenious to say saruman was head of the istari because the author wanted to set up a straw man to fail... Sure it's dramatic and makes a good story, but it's not internally consistent. It makes more sense if you posit that the istari sorted themselves out before they appeared on the shores of middle earth. One could imagine Saruman saying he was in charge, and the others saying.. ok, go for it.
__________________
I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... Last edited by Blackheart : 02-16-2005 at 02:01 PM. Reason: Damn you for inventing spelling! |
|
02-18-2005, 07:41 PM | #8 | |||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
|
Quote:
You guys all make very interesting points - nice thread El. Didn't Galadriel say somewhere she had wanted Gandalf to be the leader? This suggests that she and maybe other Elves either had influence over the situation, or at least could observe it happening.
__________________
"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
02-23-2005, 03:44 AM | #9 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
|
Quote:
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die. |
|
02-23-2005, 09:22 AM | #10 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 198
|
Artanis wrote :Manwë's words could be taken to mean that Gandalf's humbleness and self-doubt, and his respect for Sauron's power, made him a very different personality from Saruman, and that he therefore would become a perfect companion.
I agree with that except I'm not so sure that I would say companion. I think of the two blue wizards as companions since there is specific mention of friendship between them. Saruman is a little "ticked-off" by Varda's comment in UT before he becomes "flesh" he is also jealous of Cirdan's gift to Gandalf after he becomes "flesh". I think this personality trait along with his pride was probably not unknown in Valinor and given the nature of the task I can't see it raising absolutely no concern at all among the Valar - I just think the upside of Saruman's potential and the inclusion of Olorin out-weighed those concerns. Artanis wrote: I don't think the Valar suspected that Saruman would fail his task and fall, anymore than the others of the Istari I disagree here, I think Manwe (at least) had more faith in Olorin than any other. Dunedain wrote: Remember, Manwe thought that Melkor repented when he sued for pardon the second time because there was no evil in him so he could not comprehend evil. Very good point, I'm sticking with my views for now, but I had not remembered that. Last edited by squinteyedsoutherner : 02-23-2005 at 10:17 AM. |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
What All Was Wrong with PJ's LOTR | Wally | Lord of the Rings Movies | 425 | 08-14-2016 08:43 AM |
LOTR Discussion Project: Book V, Chapter 4: The Siege of Gondor | Beren3000 | LOTR Discussion Project | 31 | 02-09-2006 02:46 AM |
LotR Discussion Project: The Two Towers--Book III, Chapter V: The White Rider | mithrand1r | LOTR Discussion Project | 14 | 10-25-2005 09:55 AM |
Could Gandalf the White defeat the Balrog more easily? | Balrog_of_Morgoth | Lord of the Rings Books | 13 | 04-29-2003 12:08 PM |
Gandalf - Gandalf the White | Captain Stern | The Silmarillion | 7 | 03-21-2001 08:08 AM |