Is bringing the Elves to Valinor wrong?

Beren3000 · 11-01-2004, 02:48 PM

This thread was inspired by one of brownjenkins' posts in the "which inflicted more damage" thread. He says that what caused the most damage in the First Age is bringing the Elves to Valinor in the first place. What do you people think? Should the Valar have left the Elves in Middle Earth? How different would ME have been then? Would avoiding the evil of Feanor and all the War of the Jewels be worth the Elves never knowing the bliss of Valinor?

Telcontar_Dunedain · 11-01-2004, 02:53 PM

I think that although bringing the elves to Valinor did eventually cause trouble it wasn't the wrong desicion. Melkor was evil anyway and a lot of resistance was provided from the Noldorin elves. If they hadn't been bought to Valinor then there would have been a chance that Melkor would have seduced them into becoming his servants, then the Firstborn Children of Illuvatar would have possibly been destroyed by the Valar. And Earendiel would not have know of Valinor, so he wouldn't have gone to seek Valinor, which could have resulted in no action from the Valar.

brownjenkins · 11-01-2004, 02:58 PM

just replied the following in other thread... but best to keep this here

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beren3000

I disagree very strongly! You want to move this to another thread?

we had a pretty good thread on this point a while back: the valar

my point at the time: the point

and some textual support: evidence

as i said then... the initial act by the valar to leave middle earth and later let melkor basically have his way with it was questionable... and not really ever satisfactorily justified... at least in my opinion

Beren3000 · 11-01-2004, 03:06 PM

But it seems to me that you're discussing whether the Valar were wrong to interefere in the War of the Jewels, whereas the question here is whether it was wrong for them to bring the Elves into Valinor in the first place. Please help me with this misunderstanding.

brownjenkins · 11-01-2004, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beren3000

But it seems to me that you're discussing whether the Valar were wrong to interefere in the War of the Jewels, whereas the question here is whether it was wrong for them to bring the Elves into Valinor in the first place. Please help me with this misunderstanding.

in the thread i referred to i was thinking big picture... which kind of ties in with the idea of bringing the elves to valinor... if they took on melkor from day one, and stuck with his imprisonment when they got 'em... the concept of valinor would be 'moot... the valar would still inhabit the whole middle earth

this is idea has a basis in tolkien's early works on the matter... and was never really reconciled later... they made the first mistake, so they bear some of the responsibility for all that followed

the "root of all evil" is melkor... and they let him hang around much too long... eventually they realized their error and took him out for good, but much damage was done because they put it off for so long... sure they had their reasons... but they were somewhat suspect

Wayfarer · 11-02-2004, 10:58 AM

I don't think there's much room for discussion on this topic. The Valar were clearly in error when they retreated and let Melkor have 90% of Middle Earth, and in doing so they had failed their duties as stewards.

Tolkien himself implies on at least one occassion that the Valar shouldn't have brought the elves to Valinor. The elves were Children of Eru, and were meant to inhabit Middle Earth just as Men were. The fact that many, perhaps even most, of the elves were strongly reluctant to leave only supports this.

By brining the Elves to Valinor, the Valar were attempting to keep the lesser children for themselves, much the same way a young child might become possessive of a pet. This is well in line with their previous actions, where they attempt to hoard all that is good in Middle Earth for themselves and shut out the rest of the world. This is done throughout the history of ME, and it provides some very good reasons for Men to be resentful, which is why Sauron is able to so easily corrupt the Numenoreans.

11-01-2004, 02:48 PM	#1
Beren3000 Fëanorophobic Join Date: May 2004 Location: Between the pages of a book Posts: 1,417	Was bringing the Elves to Valinor wrong? This thread was inspired by one of brownjenkins' posts in the "which inflicted more damage" thread. He says that what caused the most damage in the First Age is bringing the Elves to Valinor in the first place. What do you people think? Should the Valar have left the Elves in Middle Earth? How different would ME have been then? Would avoiding the evil of Feanor and all the War of the Jewels be worth the Elves never knowing the bliss of Valinor? Last edited by Beren3000 : 11-03-2004 at 08:58 AM.

11-01-2004, 02:53 PM	#2
Telcontar_Dunedain Warrior of the House of Hador Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,651	I think that although bringing the elves to Valinor did eventually cause trouble it wasn't the wrong desicion. Melkor was evil anyway and a lot of resistance was provided from the Noldorin elves. If they hadn't been bought to Valinor then there would have been a chance that Melkor would have seduced them into becoming his servants, then the Firstborn Children of Illuvatar would have possibly been destroyed by the Valar. And Earendiel would not have know of Valinor, so he wouldn't have gone to seek Valinor, which could have resulted in no action from the Valar. __________________ Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230

11-02-2004, 10:58 AM	#6
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	I don't think there's much room for discussion on this topic. The Valar were clearly in error when they retreated and let Melkor have 90% of Middle Earth, and in doing so they had failed their duties as stewards. Tolkien himself implies on at least one occassion that the Valar shouldn't have brought the elves to Valinor. The elves were Children of Eru, and were meant to inhabit Middle Earth just as Men were. The fact that many, perhaps even most, of the elves were strongly reluctant to leave only supports this. By brining the Elves to Valinor, the Valar were attempting to keep the lesser children for themselves, much the same way a young child might become possessive of a pet. This is well in line with their previous actions, where they attempt to hoard all that is good in Middle Earth for themselves and shut out the rest of the world. This is done throughout the history of ME, and it provides some very good reasons for Men to be resentful, which is why Sauron is able to so easily corrupt the Numenoreans. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

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11-01-2004, 03:06 PM	#4
Beren3000 Fëanorophobic Join Date: May 2004 Location: Between the pages of a book Posts: 1,417	But it seems to me that you're discussing whether the Valar were wrong to interefere in the War of the Jewels, whereas the question here is whether it was wrong for them to bring the Elves into Valinor in the first place. Please help me with this misunderstanding.