Goldberry

[Forkbeard]

There is a lot of discussion about Tom Bombadill, but I have to ask about Goldberry. What is Goldberry? Yes, the book says she's the River's daughter...but what does that mean exactly? Is she Maiar? A lesser spirit? Or is "Riverman's daughter" just that she is the daughter of a mortal who lives on the River (no, I don't think so either). Is she a goddess? She in some ways anticipates Galadriel....What do you all think?

[Beren3000]

I think that she's like the nymphs of Greek mythology: a river spirit. However, I think she's so closely tied to Tom Bombadil that you can't figure her out unless you know who Tom is and vice versa.
I agree with your point that she's an "introduction" to Galadriel.

[Attalus]

I agree that Goldberry is a lot like a naiad, the water-nymphs of Greek mythology. I think, like Tom, any attempt to further identify her as a maia is a mistake. There is much in Tolkien's legendarium that is designed to be obscure. And, yes, in her role of nuturer and adviser of the Hobbits, she does indeed foreshadow Galadriel.

[Lefty Scaevola]

There is no answer to be had from Tolkien's text, notes, or letters. you have no better way to proceed than to list all the info their is about her, use it to exclude some races, and then judge what she best fits as.

[Elanor the Fair]

River-woman's daughter, River-daughter, daughter of the River - Goldberry is called all of these. What do they mean??

A river sprite - very possibly. The river personified?? Well, in every instance when Tolkien refers to Goldberry the word "river" is capitalised. This means not just a river, but the river as a person. Think about all the references to Goldberry...

Then another voice .... like the song of a glad water flowing down into the night .... came falling to meet them.

Reed by the living pool.

She passed out of the room with a glimmer and a rustle. The sound of her footsteps was like a stream falling

She seemed to be enthroned in the midst of a pool.

Her gown rustled softly like the wind in the flowering borders of a river.

Goldberry's song " told the tale of a river from the spring .. to the sea.

She held a candle ... and the light flowed through it(her hand), like sunlight through a white shell.

She was clad all in silver .... her shoes were like fishes mail.

Goldberry sang many songs ... they saw in their minds pools and waters...

Her hair was flying loose, and as it caught the sun it shone and shimmered. A light light the glint of water on dewy grass flashed from under her feet as she danced.

But most significantly...
By that pool long ago I found the River-daughter. Sweet was her singing then, and her heart was beating!
Tom seems to indicate that Goldberry's beating heart was noteworthy. A non-living thing suddenly becoming alive?

I think this indicates that Goldberry is of the water in some way - perhaps the daughter of the River itself.

[Attalus]

That fits with her being called 'River-Daughter.' I remember being a bit surprised, the first time I read the books, that we never encountered her again, she is so fully realised,

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Lefty Scaevola

There is no answer to be had from Tolkien's text, notes, or letters...

Not exactly so. In the letter #210 Tolkien states that "Goldberry represents the actual seasonal changes" in the river-land.
So, in a way she is a lesser than maia local spirit ,created, or probably got herself created out of Ulmo's waters.

[Attalus]

Hmm, so is that why Tom gathers lilies for her and she sits among them? That is a striking image but has rather puzzled me.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Not exactly so. In the letter #210 Tolkien states that "Goldberry represents the actual seasonal changes" in the river-land.
So, in a way she is a lesser than maia local spirit ,created, or probably got herself created out of Ulmo's waters.

In part, it is this letter which creates my question. Neither she nor Tom fit as Maia, and Tolkien to the best of my knowledge never really outlined what the "less than maia" beings might be or look like or at like; the description of Goldberry as the River's daughter doesn't seem to me to indicate that she is such a spirit. And yet, does Tolkien's mythology allow for such beings? Or should you answer with Tolkien's comment on Tom, that she isn't to be examined closely and doesn't benefit from such examination anyway?

Inked is right that G and T fit an interesting pattern of couples in ME.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

you know, when i first read fotr, i thought that goldberry was an elf























please don't laugh at me

[ecthelion]

"The river's daughter"
Got me thinking again...
What if Goldberry is the river's daughter, literally daughter as said before, but literally river as in Ulmo?

What if Goldberry is Ulmo's daughter?

(Read the 2 previous posts about Goldberry and haven't found this theory. Searched google and found this:
http://blind-guardian.com/forum/view...8f8ebad5ba54d9
)

To make it consistent with previous arguments:
Tom's origin and Goldberry's don't necessarily have to be linked. We could take Tolkien's writing literally: "long ago I found her"... Tom was uniquely created, and met Goldberry.
Her description does sometimes remind us of Ulmo's (clad in fish mail).
A couple in Tolkien's writing doesn't have to be of the same order (see Melian the maia and Thingol the elf).
Also they had a daughter, so maiar (and possibly valar) can have children.

Shoot me now and spare yourselves the agony of debating this all over again

[Lindáriel]

Originally Posted by ecthelion

"The river's daughter"
Got me thinking again...
What if Goldberry is the river's daughter, literally daughter as said before, but literally river as in Ulmo?

What if Goldberry is Ulmo's daughter?

(Read the 2 previous posts about Goldberry and haven't found this theory. Searched google and found this:
http://blind-guardian.com/forum/view...8f8ebad5ba54d9
)

To make it consistent with previous arguments:
Tom's origin and Goldberry's don't necessarily have to be linked. We could take Tolkien's writing literally: "long ago I found her"... Tom was uniquely created, and met Goldberry.
Her description does sometimes remind us of Ulmo's (clad in fish mail).
A couple in Tolkien's writing doesn't have to be of the same order (see Melian the maia and Thingol the elf).
Also they had a daughter, so maiar (and possibly valar) can have children.

Shoot me now and spare yourselves the agony of debating this all over again

LOL means Laugh out loud

[ecthelion]

Originally Posted by Lindáriel

LOL means Laugh out loud

Hello Lindáriel and welcome to Entmoot!

It might be of interest to point out that what appears under the short line in every post is a members signature.

Have a nice moot!

[nokom]

Ho Tom Bom Bombadilo! :P Anyway, I am quite interested in Mr. Bombadil. Goldberry is in no way a God nor is Tom. I personally think that Tom was one of the Istari, and that Goldberry may have been an elf of some nature.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by nokom

Ho Tom Bom Bombadilo! :P Anyway, I am quite interested in Mr. Bombadil. Goldberry is in no way a God nor is Tom. I personally think that Tom was one of the Istari, and that Goldberry may have been an elf of some nature.

One of the "Blue Wizards" then? Interesting theory, but since the Istari only came to Middle Earth at about 1000 of the Third Age, that doesn't seem to work with the way Elrond spoke about Bombadil.

[elven dragonrider]

I disagree that Goldberry might be an elf of some sort. I may need to read the book again, and I might be wrong. I remember something strange about her that could be elf-like, but I do remember making the mental decision that she was not an elf. I may be wrong!>

[nokom]

Yes about how Elrond spoke of Tom... Not sure there, that always halts it...

[ecthelion]

*stubborn *
So why can't she be Ulmo's daughter?