Nature vs. Maths

[Beren3000]

This is a thread for all of you out there; whether you love maths or hate them.
I've always wondered about this topic and I'll divide it into two questions:

1- Is mathematics an invention or a discovery? I mean does it actually exist in nature or is it man's own work?

2- Can perfect mathematics exist in nature? (i.e. does nature have a perfect circle or a perfect straight line, etc...)?

I'm going to post my opinions later after I hear some of you Mooters' opinions.

Speculate away!

[Haradrim]

First off I think Math is in nature but it is not like the way we describe it.
TO me there has to be cuz there are definate constants ie- the golden mean, pi, e, and so on. and I think in nature there can exist a perfect circle or a perfect something it would just be really hard to find. Probably on some distant palnet whos inhabitants have creatyed a perfect-object-shaping machine.

[Jonathan]

Man uses mathematics to describe complicated things in the world we live in. We can make certain things in nature easier for us to grasp if we use maths to simplify what we see.

But perfect mathematics absolutely exists in nature and Man has just invented tools to interpret it. Beren, you have read the Da Vinci code, so you surely know about the Divine Proportion. I guess that is at least some evidence that there is mathematics in nature, though it isn't necessarely perfect mathematics.
I don't know where in nature you can find perfect circles or straight lines, but I'm sure they exist. I'll have to come back to that. I remember reading a scientific article about how nature is the world's best mathematician and I'll see if I can find the magazine I read it in... I believe it had some examples of natural perfect circles etc.

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by Haradrim

Probably on some distant palnet whos inhabitants have creatyed a perfect-object-shaping machine.

Well the fact that they're produced with MACHINES wouldn't exactly make them NATURAL, would it?

Originally Posted by Jonathan

I don't know where in nature you can find perfect circles or straight lines, but I'm sure they exist.

I wouldn't be so sure; I read some information about The Vitruvian man, Da Vinci's most famous sketch. It talks about how various parts of the body could be divided in the Divine Proportion. But can you actually find a man whose body parts can be divided EXACTLY in the Divine Proportion, to an infinite degree of accuracy? I mean the very fact that the Divine Proportion 1.618..... and pi is 3.141.... the fact that they're not Rational numbers, doesn't that mean that our current system of measurment is not compatible with Nature, that we can't conviently record (accurately) natural events and structures?

P.S. I'd love to see that mag. article if you can supply it

[Haradrim]

well what did you mean by natural. CUz technically since the machine was made of metal and metal came from the earth then isn't the machine natural and since you can probably trace the parts used to make the perfect thingimibobby back to something natural then isnt the whole machine natural and everything it creates natural. Im just being reall stupid, dont pay attention to me.

[Beren3000]

I meant natural as in "present in nature" not made by man. Something that God created and placed in the Universe as is. So a tree would be natural, but a house MADE from that tree's wood wouldn't be natural. Get my point?

[Haradrim]

I know I was just being stupid. So actually now that I think about it could you ever get a pefect object. Now that I think about no for the reasons you have stated. Thanks