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Old 07-22-2004, 11:47 AM   #1
Beren3000
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"The deeds of Men will outlast us, Gimli.."

This quote is said by Legolas upon his visiting of the Glittering Caves in Helm's Deep. My question is, why did he say this? Is this prophetic of the start of the Age of Men? Or does it have a deeper meaning related to the nature of Elves and Men?

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Last edited by Beren3000 : 07-26-2004 at 03:54 AM.
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Old 07-23-2004, 01:53 AM   #2
Artanis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beren3000
This quote is said by Legolas upon his visiting of the Glittering Caves in Helm's Deep. My question is, why did he say this? Is this prophetic of the start of the Age of Men? Or does it have a deeper meaning related to the nature of Elves and Men?

Speculate away!
I think the actual quote is: "The deeds of Men will outlast us. Gimli."
I think Legolas the Elf was rather sad when he said this - he knew that Men was destined to take over the world, and that the Elves were bound to either leave Middle-Earth or to slowly fade.
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Old 07-25-2004, 10:02 AM   #3
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I thought the quote has something to do with the Elves art being perfect and all that (mentioned in the foreword to the Sil.); in this context, Legolas' quote would be symbolic of a certain "deeper" meaning...Then again, I probably thought wrong
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Old 07-25-2004, 10:32 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beren3000
I thought the quote has something to do with the Elves art being perfect and all that (mentioned in the foreword to the Sil.);
Which edition of the Sil are you referring to? I can't find it ....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beren3000
in this context, Legolas' quote would be symbolic of a certain "deeper" meaning...Then again, I probably thought wrong
I don't think there's any right ot wrong in this case, only different opinions. Would you care to elaborate on your opinion?
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Old 07-26-2004, 03:52 AM   #5
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The edition I'm referring to is the Harper Collins edition. Black cover, with a small circle in the middle containing one of Tolkien's designs.

Here's my opinion:
In this foreword, Tolkien says that Elves, being immortal, are the perfect artists because they can continually add to and improve their works. He calls them the "artist's dream", IIRC. So my point is, Men's works being transient and "incomplete" from the Elves' point of view deserves more merit because if they could create such beautiful works during their "short" life span, it is certainly a feat to be celebrated. On the other hand, Elves' works, however more beautiful than those of Men, are not to be given this much praise because Elves had an unfairly long time to work on them. So in this context, Legolas is saying that people will remember the work of Men more than that of the Elves. So what do you think?
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Old 07-27-2004, 12:03 AM   #6
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I don't think he was showing a prophecy so much as some foresight. Notable deeds of the elves included their alliance with men against Sauron, and "other things" which have already begun to fade from the general public's memory in Middle Earth, even despite the elves' art that carries those stories. But Man's abolition of Sauron and all evil by Aragorn, as the newest and final chapter of great deeds, would naturally stay in people's minds much longer, and proabably distract attention from older, seemingly less important deeds of the elves. Dwarves just missed their chance for such glory when Men restored happiness forever, which is sad in itself though, because the dwarves surely would have kicked ass.
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Old 07-31-2004, 06:51 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beren3000
Here's my opinion:
In this foreword, Tolkien says that Elves, being immortal, are the perfect artists because they can continually add to and improve their works. He calls them the "artist's dream", IIRC.
Thank you, I have not read that, my edition obviously has a different foreword.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beren3000
So my point is, Men's works being transient and "incomplete" from the Elves' point of view deserves more merit because if they could create such beautiful works during their "short" life span, it is certainly a feat to be celebrated. On the other hand, Elves' works, however more beautiful than those of Men, are not to be given this much praise because Elves had an unfairly long time to work on them. So in this context, Legolas is saying that people will remember the work of Men more than that of the Elves. So what do you think?
It's an interesting view of art that I've never considered before. The question is, does art get better if it is continually worked on and 'improved'? Wouldn't it be more like craft then? I think of art as something emerged out of a momentary inspiration and ability, something that can be made once and never again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bombadillo
Notable deeds of the elves included their alliance with men against Sauron, and "other things" which have already begun to fade from the general public's memory in Middle Earth, even despite the elves' art that carries those stories. But Man's abolition of Sauron and all evil by Aragorn, as the newest and final chapter of great deeds, would naturally stay in people's minds much longer, and proabably distract attention from older, seemingly less important deeds of the elves.
I agree with this. The Elves, due to their immortality, carried the stories of the Elder days with them, unchanged. But in the hands of short-lived Men the stories would get altered and forgotten over time. When the Elves no longer were around, I guess Men would mostly concentrate on the history concerning themselves, just like the Elves did not bother much about the history of Men (or Dwarves, for that matter).
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Old 08-09-2004, 07:16 PM   #8
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This is not my personal opinion but it is one that people rarely think about, and that is that there is nothing deep and profound about that line. Tolkien, while an incredible writer probably did not, nor could not make every line and every word extreamly deep and thoughtful. It is possible that this is just a litteral translation of the works of men(buildings, rings, etc.) and deeds of men( destruction, or none destruction of the ring, etc.) will go on and on even after Legolas and Gimli have departed from Middle Earth. One way to ythink about it... that there is nothing more than what is there...
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Old 08-09-2004, 09:39 PM   #9
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It is still sad, to me. I miss the Elves and Dwarves. All the magic went out of Middle-earth with them, unless, of course, you count the Faded.
Of course! I completely agree. (Middle-)earth is a lot more trite without them.
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