Corporal Punishment

[Nerdanel]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3866747.stm

What do you think? Is it necessary? What kind of signals does a parent who slaps his/her kid send to the child?

(sorry if there already is a thread on this. I did a search but I didn't find anything)

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

The US and Somalia remain the only countries not to have signed the convention, which routinely tells members appearing before its committee to pass laws banning smacking.

In the US, it is legal in all 50 states to smack a child "in so far as the corporal punishment does not meet the individual state's definition of child abuse".

Does the US have a phobia in signing treaties and conventions?
Kyoto et al.
(No offence to populus, just gov'ts)

These laws are a good thing, in my personal opinion.
Children do not have the ability to defend themselves.

[Starr Polish]

My parents used mild corporal punishment on me when I was a child, and I think I've grown up to be fairly well adjusted and I am not violent. They never ABUSED me, mind you. I was spanked as a young child by both parents, and was also made to stand in a corner on my tiptoes with my hands over my head. Timeout did nothing for me, because I would just screw around or keep talking.

My mother did slap me across the face once, out of anger, and I feel that was inappropriate. I think the number one rule of corporal punishment should be: NEVER spank your child out of anger.

[azalea]

There was a thread about this, but it's old.

I happen to have a three year old son, so right now I'm in favor of allowing parents to use spankings reasonably (not abusively). When I was a kid I was against it, and if you ask me in fifteen years, I may be against it again.

I waited until my older son was three to use spankings, figuring before then was too young for him to be expected to not throw tantrums. After using spankings occasionally, I ended up having to do it less and less, as the threat of one was just as effective in making him comply when out of control. Now he's five, and I rarely even have to threaten; he knows how he is supposed to behave, and that if he doesn't comply, he'll be punished. Now the other type of punishment is just as effective --taking stuff away (no tv, no having a friend over, no going to the pool, etc).

I think that by the time a child is about 8, they are too old to be spanked at all. The discipline in the home should be well enough established by then that they are unecessary anyway. There are plenty of other ways to discipline an older child.

By spanking I mean one smack with my hand on his bottom. Smacking in the face is very wrong, using a belt (or anything but the hand) is way too much. The object of a spanking isn't to inflict pain, but to stop an out of control behavior. The amount of pain should be just enough to get the child's attention so that he will stop and focus on you and what you're saying.

I also don't think it should be done in public (the object isn't to humiliate the child, either). If a child is misbehaving/out of control in public, the first step should be to remove him from the place. That in itself will probably calm him down enough to be able to talk to him calmly about his behavior.

I understand why some countries have laws, and it is sad because so many parents either overuse spankings or even end up abusing their child. But to take away the freedom to reasonably use spankings on one's child in the privacy of the home goes too far, IMO. Child abuse is illegal and should be punished, but I don't equate the occasional spanking with abuse.

[Rían]

I agree with azalea

You should NEVER discipline a child in anger. I've had to say several times: "Mom is too angry to deal with you now - please go into your room and I'll go into mine, and we'll talk in about 10 minutes."

However, I think it's silly to confuse abuse with "correct" spanking. If spanking was so harmful, why didn't all of our grandparents and parents grow up to be ax murderers?

IMO, "correct" spanking takes place for an intentionally defiant behavior CHOICE in an important area, and the important thing is that the penalty is clearly known BEFORE the offense happens, and it is explained WHY the rule there, and the spanking is NOT done in anger. The interesting thing about this is that the kids do NOT mind it, because they clearly see it's THEIR choice that brings the consequence. In fact, they've even reminded me at times if the offense took place early on and I forgot when I got home! (of course they've been angry, too, but generally they aren't, because I'M not doing it in anger, and they can see that it was THEIR choice and they knew the consequence before.)

One of the rules I had when the kids were younger was that when we got out of the car away from home, they all had to keep one hand on the car while I unloaded the stroller and put the baby in it. They were told, and reminded before outings when it was a new rule, that if they took their hand off the car before I said it was OK, that they would get a spanking when they got home, BECAUSE I loved them very much and did NOT want them to get hurt by a car.

So my attitude is: I love you guys a lot! and I'm your Mom, and God has put me in charge of you for your good and your safety, and these are the rules that I think need to be in place, and this is WHY these rules are in place, and these are the penalties if you choose to break the rules, and I'll do everything I can to encourage you to stay within the rules, because I love you!

[The Gaffer]

I agree with your agreement. Especially this:

Originally posted by RÃ*an
You should NEVER discipline a child in anger.

I got smacked at home a couple of times and belted at school a couple of times. What punishment had the most effect on me? My granny saying "I'm not going to play cards with you because you're cheating." Never cheated at games since.

Mind you, it was just last night.

Not sure about this ban thing. The problem is that lots of people don't see the line between abuse and mild, occasional punishment. Maybe if the option of beating their children is removed from them they will have to think again. (Probably won't though)

[brownjenkins]

i have three boys ~ 10, 6 and 2 ~ and neither my wife or i have never raised a hand to any of them, or ever disciplined them in any physical way... they're kids, so they have their moments, but just about everyone who meets them mentions how well-behaved they are... very well-spoken, polite and respectful of our demands once they realize it is something that important... even when they don't always agree

i wouldn't go so far as to judge others who use different methods (unless they are truely abusive)... but i know without a doubt that good children can be raised without using physical methods

[Tessar]

I think it just depends!

Some children NEED a beating. Nothing will get through to them but that their actions can cause them physical pain.

Some children just need a scolding and they'll 'punish' themselves the rest of the way. I'm kind of like that, because I beat myself up (mentally mind you ) whenever anything I'm doing goes wrong, so people tend to go a lot easier on me.

And no I don't beat myself up so that people will go easier on me, I just can't help it, and some times people will see that I honestly AM sorry.

Now when I was a little kid I had no remorse and I think most of the spankings I got were well deserved .

[Valandil]

Oh... THAT Corporal Punishment! I thought this was another thread about Beor!

[Starr Polish]

I forgot to mention that I believe corporal punishment should also always be done at home and not in public, and should be considered a last resort. One of the more effective punishments or "threats" my parents ever had was "If you're going to behave that way, we're leaving" and then following through with that threat. My sister and I quickly learned that to do fun things, like go to the playground, out to dinner, or movies, we had to behave. Heck, it even worked for gun shows (I've been going to them since I was four and knew better than to touch the knives and other things on display).

[Rían]

Originally posted by Starr Polish
I forgot to mention that I believe corporal punishment should also always be done at home and not in public ...

Absolutely!!! I have great respect for a child's dignity. The siblings aren't allowed to watch, and if they don't know the offense, they aren't told - or rather, they're told "that doesn't concern you."

[Nerdanel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an

However, I think it's silly to confuse abuse with "correct" spanking. If spanking was so harmful, why didn't all of our grandparents and parents grow up to be ax murderers?

I don't think any sort of punishment makes people ax murderers; I think there is something else behind that sort of madness.
The thing that can be the result of corporal punishment is psychological problems. Those we can't see but they can feel.

I also think that "psychological punishment" can be a lot worse than spanking.
I understand that as a parent you have to really grab your kid sometimes, and it might hurt a bit. You can't let them run under a car either!

Tessar; beating is a strong word IMO. I don't think any child needs beating; maybe some parents do.

Finland is one of the countries in the world with the highest rate of violence in the family, despite the law that bans any sort of violence/abuse. This might have something to do with the fact that we also have
1) one of the highest suicide rates in the world
2) have lots and lots of alcoholic people (and lots of alcohol too)

[Rían]

Originally posted by Nerdanel
I also think that "psychological punishment" can be a lot worse than spanking.

Yes, I agree - I just hate hearing some of the things that parents say to their kids

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Yes, I agree - I just hate hearing some of the things that parents say to their kids

One of the worst things you can do is to lie
to children, because when child finds out the truth
then the parent has lost some credibility with their child.

examplec=child, p=parent)
c - mummy, where do babies come from?
p - oh, jimmy, the stork drops them down the chimney
c - but don't they hurt their heads?
p - no, jimmy, they have magic pixie dust.

my parents always had a policy of telling the truth when asked for a question, and I haven't turned out too bad, eh?

[Rían]

I agree that lying is bad, but I also think telling the truth is not always appropriate - sometimes I just say "you're not quite old enough yet for me to explain that to you".

For example, my oldest son came home from school one day with a really crass sexual joke and asked me what it meant. I explained part of it, but felt that he was not old enough to explain ALL of it, so I just told him that he didn't need to know what the other part of that joke meant, just know that it was very insulting and hurtful to the person so he shouldn't use that term. That's all he needed to know, IMO; the details were not age-appropriate, but it's always age-appropriate to know that something is hurtful to someone.


and yes, you've turned out nice!

[Tessar]

Oh I'm sorry, I just realized I used the word 'beating', and that it doesn't mean the same thing to me as to most people .

To me a beating is the same thing as a spanking. I forgot that a 'beating' is generally much worse.

Beatings in that sense I am FULLY against. Spankings are just fine .

[Nerdanel]

Originally posted by Tessar
Spankings are just fine .

I have a feeling this could be used against you..

RÃ*an, what you did wasn't lying (not IMO, at least).

and Chrys, you've turned out just fine!

EDIT: Thanks Tessar for explaining. I got a bit nervous there.

[brownjenkins]

i'm pretty straight forward with my kids... even on sexual stuff they are not quite up to speed on yet... i figure it's better for them to get it from me than the schoolyard

and yes... spankings are fine... i just personally believe that there are other options for discipline in every case... it's worked for my own children as well as the countless children i've worked with over the years

that said, i'll be sure to post if i find out differently in the future... i always leave every option open

[Ragnarok]

I think spanking isn't really "beating" a child, I don't consider it abuse either. There are betters ways to teach discipline to a child but I don't condone or encourage spanking. My dad use to spank me with a wooden paddle when I was younger and to tell you the truth it didn't hurt, nor did it stop me from being a "bad" kid. It was quite funny cause I would pretend that when I got spanked that it hurt so that my dad would think that he dealt out enough punishment. I think most people have a problem with spanking because it doesn't teach nor correct what the child did wrong, all it does is reinforce that you did something wrong therefore you are getting punished. When I was about 14 and I started being disrespectful (i.e. talked back to him or made a smart-arse comment) he would slap or hit me in the face, But that didn't hurt either, and I know he wasn't swing hard at all but I don't really consider that abuse. Cause the only time he hit me was when I was disrespectful. However, I do think that slapping or hitting a teen isn't a good form of discipline at all. On the other hand. I don't spanking isn't that big of a deal.

[azalea]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
but i know without a doubt that good children can be raised without using physical methods

Well, there's my problem, then! I just need to trade mine in for a couple of GOOD kids! (just kidding of course!)

I know that in my case, the spanking hurts them a little, but what they're really crying about is that they know I'm unhappy with them. I am very affectionate with them, and I always tell them I love them and how proud I am of them. So when they get punished, they are unhappy partly because I am not happy with them at that time.
This works well now, but I know in a few years I will be less important in their lives as they become more independant, so it may not work the same way. But by disciplining consistantly now, I hope to have laid the foundation so that they are more apt to follow the rules later on. Well, I can always hope!