Psychiatry-->Dehumanization

[Bombadillo]

Well this surfaced a tiny bit in the philosophy and ADD threads, and it's been bothering me a lot. I've been considering a career as a psychiatrist (even learned to spell it ), or at least somewhere in psychiatry if other jobs exist. But I've been doubting now whether or not this is really fullfilling.

One point of view seems to be that psychiatrist must essentially read into a person, and relate everything they do to the disease that they have (to some degree). In other words, they credit everything the person does to their disease, as if they were totally out of control. And then the treatment is based on the possibly too deep and advanced studies of pathological disorders, so it's very by the book.

Unfortunately, although I'm very interested and think I'm pretty skilled in psychiatry, this seems mostly true. Now I think that the "science" of psychiatry is just giving names to additudes or mindsets that are really common, and the by-the-book treatments seems unnecassary to me if I know how to talk to someone who is depressed, angry, or whatever. Whether they feel that way temporarily because of one specific incident, or if they have been that way since childhood because of a variety of factors (maybe one major one... whatever...) I don't expect it should matter.

In short, I think that there are so much better things that I could be doing instead of 'traeting' people in such a questionable way; and if i wanted really to help them, not be bound by any rules from journals or laws.

I don't mean to argue anything here, and I hope you'll contribute for me. What's your stance on this topic?

[jerseydevil]

Well pyschology is talking, psychiatry is medical and deals with more of a "disease" aspect.

My friend Trish is a nurse (she just graduated) and works as a psychiatric nurse in the childrens ward of a hospital.

I don't believe that have to read anything or at least everything into terms of a disease - it's more like they figure out - is there a mental condition, a life experience, or what that is causing the problem. The mind is very complex - and it is very hard to say "this is it". It's different from having a broken bone or high blood pressure or other observable medical condition.

[Valandil]

I'm an outsider to the social science fields, but in so many ways, I imagine that they're still in their 'infancy'. It seems much easier to quantify material things in the world around us (what I call the 'hard sciences' of chemistry, physics, biology, astronomy, etc) than those that happen inside of us (which I call the 'soft sciences' of pschology, sociology, etc).

I think most of those in the social sciences are very well-intentioned, but I also think it could be too easy to over-simplify conclusions in those fields, which you allude to in your post (ie, you do THAT because THIS happened to you). I think we are just so incredibly complex in what shapes and influences us that to take it down to a few major events shaping our actions and attitudes... well, that's just hard for me to swallow.

Since my college years though, I have gained a greater appreciation for the social sciences... mostly through a friendship I formed with a sociology professor (not from my school). He had a lot of insights. In college, many took Intro to Psych followed by either Developmental Psych or Abnormal Psych to fill general education requirements. I took Intro and 'Psychology of Learning and Memory' due to my interest in that area (ironically, I've forgotten most of it! ). However, getting to know this guy made me wish I had taken a sociology sequence instead... especially as an architect.

If I were you, I wouldn't rule it out. If you feel it to be 'your calling' - I certainly think there's a lot of positive stuff still to be tapped in the field... just hope it stays rather broad-minded as far as making diagnoses, etc.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally Posted by Valandil

I'm an outsider to the social science fields, but in so many ways, I imagine that they're still in their 'infancy'. It seems much easier to quantify material things in the world around us (what I call the 'hard sciences' of chemistry, physics, biology, astronomy, etc) than those that happen inside of us (which I call the 'soft sciences' of pschology, sociology, etc).

i am doing sociology - it is not a soft science - ow you looked at me!!

joking aside, psychology/psychiatry, in dealing more with people and their minds, is (i believe) harder than sociology, which i find to be incredibly easy, i only need D's to go on to A2, and I think this will be an easy one.
Sociology is often termed the dark side, usually by psychology students/lecturers, anyone know why

[Beruthiel's cat]

This should prove to be an interesting thread, especially since I have just taken an office support staff job at a university counseling center. (I start in July). The school I will be working at offers a counseling degree, but there is no medical school, so psychiatry is not offered.

Both JD and Valandil make excellent points about the nature of psychology and psychiatry as sciences. I think that if you are truly interested in it as a profession, you should make an effort to study it. As you learn more, you will begin to see what is involved and how your personal philosophies and opinions fit into the discipline. From there you can decide which direction you want to go -- if you want to go into the medical end of the study of the mind and mental processes and illness, or if you would be more comfortable as a counsellor or as a psychologist -- dealing more with the person-to-person aspects of mental health.

Whatever you decide, you sound like a compassionate person. It takes special people to deal with others on such an intimate basis. Good luck to you!

[The Gaffer]

Firstly, congratulations that you are contemplating a caring career. The world needs more people like you.

Secondly, psychiatry is not psychoanalysis. You don't have to subcribe to a particular school of thought to practice psychiatry; most don't. The evidence is that cognitive behavioural therapy is as effective as drugs and more effective than psychoanalysis in many areas.

Unfortunately, CBT is far more expensive than drugs, so, three guesses what you'll be spending most of your time doing.

Thirdly, we should remember that health professions are about care, not cure. There is lots we can do for people to make their lives better (comfort, support, advice, insight, the possibility of a normal life) even if we can't cure them.

Fourth, and finally, we don't understand as much as we like to think we do about these "hard" sciences like physiology and biochemistry. You can be a scientific psychiatrist; you just have to be careful to apply scientific principles to the theories and constructs being applied to the problem.

What do you think?

[Hemel]

My stance? My opinion is that it is a worthwhile thing to do.

You know, Bombadillo, it's these two things that you said that really impresed me

In other words, they credit everything the person does to their disease, as if they were totally out of control. And then the treatment is based on the possibly too deep and advanced studies of pathological disorders, so it's very by the book.

if i wanted really to help them, not be bound by any rules from journals or laws.

Because I think that in the psycho professions there is a danger of imposing the psycho definition on the person - matching them to what is in the books, treating them according to the books ... and forgetting that actually, what's here, is a person. It might be a person who can't express him or herself very well right at that moment, or who is very scared, or who doesn't know what's going on, but it is still a person. In other words, what I think should be happening in treatment is more a partnership - both people have specialised knowledge ... the psycho has spent years training, the client or patient has experienced whatever the issue is, and may well have spent years experiencing it.

A psycho who is too 'by the book' can do a lot of damage. Especially, this is, considering how vulnerable clients can be, and uncertain maybe, and that also they are part of a group of people who can have their liberty taken away from them. I think a psycho too has to be sensitive to the idea that s/he won't be suitable for every patient - but that this isn't a failure. It's just that some people get on better than others. Oh, and also strong, because some things that have to be dealt with are very upsetting indeed.

I don't know what the courses of study for you would entail, Bombadillo, were you to go ahead. But something that I think would be important (apart from all the obvious aspects of course!) would be a glance at the philosophy of the psycho-sciences. I think that would provide a healthy critical check on too much 'by the bookness' and imposition

(sorry, this is rushed because I've gtg. I hope it makes sense )

[cee2lee2]

just a few thoughts from my experiences (I have a counseling degree).....

the distinction others have made between treatment involving medications and treatment involving "talk" are real even though many times both are used in conjunction for the same person.

if you are planning for psychiatry you also need to consider whether you want to be involved mostly with patients ( and it sounds like you do ) or go into research/teaching. if you're involved with patients, more than likely you will be spending very brief periods with each one in order to monitor their medications. The use of medications is predicated on the belief/evidence that particular moods, emotions, attitudes, behaviors, etc are founded in brain chemicals and their reactions. It's only rarely in the US health care system that MD psychiatrists do much more than manage medication in 20 minute sessions. So who does the "talk" therapy?

well, if you're not interested in the medical doctor route, it's possible to have a very fulfilling career helping people as a psychologist or counselor doing "talk" therapy. As in any helping profession, it's good to know how to apply your strengths but also to be fully aware of your weaknesses and biases so that the weaknesses and biases aren't used to impose a particular point of view or one-size-fits-all solution to people's issues. Good training for the helping professions helps you to explore and identify these things.

i agree that any career in the mental health field is worth doing and you have my best wishes as you explore your career options.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by cee2lee2
...well, if you're not interested in the medical doctor route, it's possible to have a very fulfilling career helping people as a psychologist or counselor doing "talk" therapy. As in any helping profession, it's good to know how to apply your strengths but also to be fully aware of your weaknesses and biases so that the weaknesses and biases aren't used to impose a particular point of view or one-size-fits-all solution to people's issues. Good training for the helping professions helps you to explore and identify these things.

i agree that any career in the mental health field is worth doing and you have my best wishes as you explore your career options.

Hi cee2lee2 - nice to have a professional in the field chipping in!

And sadly, *sigh* - being here in a big city, I've known lots of young social workers come here out of college and 'burn-out' quickly... 1 1/2 to 2 years maybe, and then change careers. Doesn't happen to ALL of course, but I've seen it happen multiple times.

[Draken]

I'm not an expert in the field but I've been having some long chats with someone doing a degree in psychology. The fact that she is blonde and curvey has nothing to do with it, honest.

Firstly, I think it's important to emphasise what The Gaffer says - psychology and psychiatry are not psychoanalysis. Psychoanalysis is (as I understand it!) dealing with psychoses by attempting to apply an understanding of how they are produced according to a proposed model of the way the mind develops. These models are produced, as far as I can tell, by their proponents after intense self-analysis - by definition they are subject to the life experience of the proponent, highly subjective and virtually impossible to either prove or disprove - it's right at one end of the spectrum of the 'mind sciences'. In fact I doubt you could really call it a science at all. A lot of psychologists have little time for it apparently. I think that's the gist of it anyway, I was having trouble concentrating, she had this really nice top on during that conversation...

The scientific aspects of psychology and psychiatry seem fascinating and do seem, bit by bit, to advance our understanding of how the mind works - and maybe how to help when it doesn't. Just don't fall in with the "you can't measure anything in the social sciences so let's just do qualititative research" crowd. In my experience they only take that view because they can't do the maths!

[Elvengirl]

First of all, Bombadillo, I think it's awesome that you are thinking of finding a career which involves helping people and I agree with most of your post.

Secondly, I've stated before that I am not really a supporter of phychiatry or psychology and I believe there are other fields in which one can help people. I can recommend many informative books to read if you are interested in getting more data.

Just a quick note - if we just take a look at the word psychology, it means "the study of the soul" coming from the Greek word psych meaning "soul". But then the field of psychology and psychiatry denies the fact that man has a soul and declares that man is only his body with no spiritual being. Right there it is a contradiction of what phychology is. Then from this materialistic, man comes from mud theory, the psychiatric field formed treatments such as psychotropic drugs, electric shock, and lobotomies. IMO I find this barbaric. I'm not saying that every patient gets this treatment, but it does exist and it is used on people.

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by Elvengirl
Then from this materialistic, man comes from mud theory, the psychiatric field formed treatments such as psychotropic drugs, electric shock, and lobotomies. IMO I find this barbaric. I'm not saying that every patient gets this treatment, but it does exist and it is used on people.

So how come it works better than any other framework of conceiving of mental health problems?

If you question electro-convulsive therapy, go and talk to severely depressed people whose lives have been saved by it. We don't know why it works, but it does.

The key lesson, to my mind, is that we should not turn our backs on things which have been proven to work just because we don't like their theoretical basis.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Valandil
And sadly, *sigh* - being here in a big city, I've known lots of young social workers come here out of college and 'burn-out' quickly... 1 1/2 to 2 years maybe, and then change careers. Doesn't happen to ALL of course, but I've seen it happen multiple times.

Happened to me. Be sure you know what yer getting into when you enter this field. Theres so much red tape and limitations involved in counseling now it really makes it hard to do as a career. Wasnt for me. But maybe for you.

[Bombadillo]

I thank all of you very much for your contributions.

It looks like psychology is definately what I'm looking for, not psychiatry. And I'm glad to hear that the possibilty of a conversation as treatment does exist after all, and not just talking, reading in, or giving drugs.

I don't think I could be scared out of the field by my patients, if that's what you're talking about with the docs in NY. Why do most leave?

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Bombadillo
I don't think I could be scared out of the field by my patients, if that's what you're talking about with the docs in NY. Why do most leave?

No - it's not from being afraid. I think it comes from feeling ineffective. That all your efforts are doing little (or no) good. That you're just beating your head against a wall.

I-Rex... what would you say?

[Insidious Rex]

More or less. Or good old fasion burn out. Very little pay. Crazy hours. Psycho kids. Unsupportive system. It all wears you down after a while. Good for temporary experience but I cant imagine making a career out of it. Plus I had a fundamentally different philosophy in my approach that rubbed up against the hyper sensitve current standards in counseling. Im about helping in what ever manner possible. The system is legally paranoid and choked by red tape because of this. Not my scene. I cant really operate as I would like under conditions like that so I walked away from it and took up computers. So now Im a techy guy with a child psychology degree.

[Beruthiel's cat]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
... Not my scene. I cant really operate as I would like under conditions like that so I walked away from it and took up computers. So now Im a techy guy with a child psychology degree.

And look where you ended up, IR!!! On the Moot!!!

(I'm not sure but that psych degree might help you out a bit around here... )

[Insidious Rex]

Well Ive learned you dont need to be a kid to act like a child.

[Bombadillo]

Well, I've settled it. I started taking a psychology course this year in high school, and I'm now looking for colleges to major in psychology.

Right, psychology is talking, most of the time, more of the time than psychiatry at least. Apparently, they do a lot of things with experiments on people too, not just counsel. The people who design school chairs to be uncomfortable to keep you awake, the people who organize a car's dashboard layout, people who script ads, are all psychologists. But clinical psychologists, which is more so what I'm looking for, are the ones who meet with patients and can refer them to psychiatrists if we think they're that crazy. The problem that I saw in psychiatry=dehumanisation is just that most people see psychiatrists first, before psychologists can tell them it's not necassary. That's the cause of the recent teen suicide jump in America from anti-depressants.

Follow? Either way, I feel both relieved and proud and I'm not quite sure why.

[Starr Polish]

I'm a psychology major, and I was looking into clinical psych for awhile. I don't really want to get a Ph.D right after getting my masters, though. I'm probably going to be a developmental or social psychologist, and work on the fun stuff like desiging uncomfortable chairs.