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04-22-2004, 10:40 AM | #1 |
Lady of Letters
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Referendums/Referenda
What are your views on governments in representative democracies holding referendums on specific issues? I know some countries use them a lot more than others - do you think they enhance democracy, or are they a waste of time?
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And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool. |
04-22-2004, 10:59 AM | #2 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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i'd like to see them a lot more often... we do have them in massachusetts, though they are somewhat tied to the legislation process
one of the things that bother's me about many politicians these days is that it is somehow seen as respectful when they have the "personal integrity" to support issues that are in complete opposition to what their constituency supports... and often to what they pledged during their own elections (or conveniently failed to address) they claim that they were elected because the people respect their ability to use their own judgement... excuse me, but i elected a representative, not a king sure, there are issues that need immediate and swift action, but they are few and far between... in some ways, i wonder if, in today's interconnected world, representative government could be largely done away with in favor of a more direct "by the people" form
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04-22-2004, 11:06 AM | #3 | |
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04-22-2004, 12:11 PM | #4 | |
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I'm not confused about what I want, Radagast. Why do you think the people are confused about what they want? I usually see people with strong opinions around me, and on the news. I don't see people picketing with signs saying "I'm confused, please tell me what to do". I really don't understand what you're saying Or are you saying the confused people just stay home and don't vote? Well, that's their choice, IMO, and then they should not complain about things if they don't like them.
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04-22-2004, 01:38 PM | #5 |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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I think referendums are used too much in some states - such as California, Oregon and Washington.
In Washington State while I was out in Oregon - the roofs in school buildings couldn't be fixed because they couldn't get as referendum passed to pay for the improvements. A lot of California's debt is caused by referendums - because yeah - it looks great to supply all these benefits to people - but people don't want to pay for them. So they pass the referendums that cost the state all this money. We elect representatives for a reason. It's imppossible for a citizen to understand all the nuiances of the government, all the costs involved with a law, the tax consequences and everything else. Citizens general look at "does it look good on paper?" and then it ends there - most people don't look at long term effects. Of course representatives don't always either - but they have more of an understanding - because they are on committees and things.
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04-22-2004, 01:45 PM | #6 |
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I have to agree with JD on some of what he said.
Sometimes people are swayed to vote with their heart and not with their head. However, I think that referendums are important to the democratic process. |
04-22-2004, 03:51 PM | #7 | |
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i heard a report on npr today about paul o'neill being fired a day before he released his report about the true effect of bush's tax policy... a report which was supressed until quite recently... and this is not just the current administration... it is common practice to "spin" economic figures when new proposals come up i'm not saying everyone will care or understand... but to those of us who do, the option should be given
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04-22-2004, 04:08 PM | #8 |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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It's not a matter of caring or not caring - it's the fact that it is impossible to know everything about everything. Against the military - sure - vote it down, but then the US is attacked - do we have to then go to a referendum to build up are military again?
You seem to be thinking that we should be having referendums on a national scale - which I am completely against because it takes away the soverignty of the states. if it's unmanageable from what I saw and experienced in the west - then I wouldn't want to imagine what it would be like on a national scale. As for bush's tax plan he can't do anything without Congress. have you read the bills that go before congress? it would be IMPOSSIBLE for citizens to vote on things - that is why we have a congress and representatives. if they don't vote the way you feel they should - then vote them out - as simple as that. The founding fathers knew that having a true democracy is unmanageable - that is why our government was set up as a democratic republic.
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04-22-2004, 04:38 PM | #9 | |||
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this is how it works in mass... and it is often the representatives who decide which issues to put forward... so they share a part of the responsibility in the process, but at the same time share some of the burden of the decision Quote:
on the "vote 'em out" philosophy, there are just too many issues to keep it that simple... you end up having to vote for the person who you disagree with the least, not the one that truely reflects your view... or even the view of the majority Quote:
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04-22-2004, 04:49 PM | #10 | |||||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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04-22-2004, 04:52 PM | #11 |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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By the way - this will never happen at the national level - the whole constitution would have to be changed and that isn't going to happen. It's way too hard and neither 2/3 of the states nor 2/3 of Congress is going to propose it.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 04-22-2004 at 04:54 PM. |
04-22-2004, 04:59 PM | #12 | |
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04-22-2004, 05:12 PM | #13 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Anyway - states already have referendums - so I don't see how it would be a major breakthrough if a country in Europe or another country - which is no bigger than the size of our states - decides to go with referendums.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 04-22-2004 at 05:15 PM. |
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04-23-2004, 01:36 AM | #14 |
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As I've said before, I'm against referendums, basically for the same reasons that jd pointed out- it's too easy to vote for all the goodies, then vote again to not pay the bills.
Of course, this is what elected politicians promise anyway, but at least when they're in office they have to try and deal with the reality of the situation. The exception I would make is for plebiscites, the rare occasions when, for example, boundaries are being set or issues of separation are being decided.
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04-23-2004, 02:55 AM | #15 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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The other thing - how much money is the government and people going to be spending on political ads for all these referendums that would come to a vote for the citizens? Are the ONLY commercial on tv going to be "vote for referendum 1,053" or "vote NO on referendum 2,493". This is why we have representatives - we elect them so they can make these decisions.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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04-23-2004, 09:59 AM | #16 | |
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04-23-2004, 03:23 PM | #17 |
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Indeed, another usless fact I learnt through studying history!
I think referenda are good for the democracy. I'm sure when (note when ) I get into political office, I will detest them, because to an extent they must prevent a politician doing his or her job. There must be times when safeguards have to implimented to prevent blocking of funding like in JD's example*. Ultimately, though, it is right that the electorate chooses a representative, who they can make do their will. the problem arises when the representative in question manipulates the question or asks simply that the elecorate votes for the correct answer... I can hear the reverse gears turning, Mr Speaker! *'How many times do I have to say it, democracy doesn't work!' - Homer J Simpson.
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04-23-2004, 03:52 PM | #18 | ||||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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This is what I said... Quote:
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 04-23-2004 at 03:55 PM. |
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04-23-2004, 03:54 PM | #19 | |
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04-23-2004, 03:56 PM | #20 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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