|
10-01-2008, 04:50 AM | #1 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
|
Saruman'a actions in summer 3018
What has really happened between the three Istari (Saruman, Radagast and Gandalf) in summer 3018?
Let us look at Saruman's actions and motives closer. Gandalf had been fond of hobbits ever since the Long winter (2758-60), long before Bilbo has found the Ring. He didn't hide his interest from Saruman and Quote:
Then Saruman suddenly learns that the nazgul - all nine - have crossed the Anduin and are searching for "the Shire". How did he learn it? Most likely from Radagast - because how otherwise the Brown Wizard, who always stayed as far as possible from politics, got involved in this story? Radagast must have learned from his birds and beasts that his neighbours, the two nazgul of Dol Guldur, set forth, crossed the river, met the other seven and rode north together, asking questions. Radagast did what was his duty: he immediately went to inform Saruman - the head of his order. Here Saruman most likely put all the loose ends together: Gandalf is interested in the Shire and goes there a lot, the nazgul try to find the Shire, and there is hardly any other errand than the search for the One Ring that would make Sauron send all the Nine to wander across western lands. The last bit can be proven by Saruman's words to the Morgul-Lord: "It is not a land that you look for," he said. "I know what you seek, though you do not name it."- UT) So, finally, before midsummer 3018, Saruman understands that the One is in the Shire, maybe in Gandalf's direct keeping, maybe in the keeping of one of the hobbits under Gandalf's supervision. Saruman's next move is to invite Gandalf to Orthanc, using the unsuspecting Radagast. Why? Most likely Saruman hopes that Gandalf will come bringing the Ring with him. That's why he orders Radagast to tell Gandalf the news about the nazgul. Would the Grey wizard leave the Ring unprotected? But that was not what happened. Gandalf came alone without the Ring. And here Saruman's actions do not make much sense, IMO. He took Gandalf out of the picture, imprisoning him in Orthanc. But he did nothing about the Ring. Why didn't he ride like the wind to the Shire himself, to get there before the nazgul? Quote:
But it seems Saruman hadn't got enough guts for it. He did the silliest thing - removed Gandalf and left the Ring completely unprotected for the nazgul to take. Or, considering that Gandalf had means to transmit the news of danger to the Ringbearer, prior to going to Orthanc, he left the Ringbearer enough time to make his way to Rivendell, where the Ring would be beyond Saruman's grasp. What was it? Miscalculation? Cowardice? What do you think? Last edited by Gordis : 10-01-2008 at 02:19 PM. |
||
10-01-2008, 10:06 AM | #2 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 987
|
Perhaps Pippin, (or was it Merry?) was right in saying that Saruman didn't have a lot of guts for straightforward confrontation, preferring to use his pawns rather than risk himself (though what risk the Shire held for him seems minimal).
Or perhaps he was preoccupied with his war on Rohan. You make an excellent point, Gordis. He could have kept Gandalf by his side and never even let on he was a traitor. "Gandalf, the Nazgul are heading for the Shire. They think the Ring is there. If you know anything about it, we must go there now, together, and keep it from the enemy!" Or some such playing along. He fell due to his pride, obviously, but it still made little sense when you think about it as you've laid out.
__________________
~The DPR "Good work. Sleep well. I'll most likely kill you in the morning." |
10-01-2008, 11:30 AM | #3 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 455
|
Perhaps it's an internal-to-the-story author's error (akin to why Elrond's Council did not even consider, even if they would have ultimately rejected the idea, having the Eagles fly the Ring to Mt. Doom and drop it in)?
__________________
Don't curse the darkness - light a candle. |
10-01-2008, 01:14 PM | #4 | |
Princess of the Noldor (and Administrative Empress of the Lone Islands)
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Imladris (and sometimes Norway)
Posts: 3,304
|
Quote:
Saruman keeping Gandalf out of things would make sense if he was doing some Ring hunting himself. He had been searching for it in the River Anduin for long enough ...
__________________
Signature picture art - Bard the Bowman - by vigshane Avatar art - Footsteps of Spring (a young Luthien) - by Henning Janssen |
|
10-01-2008, 01:39 PM | #5 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
|
Yet the only thing Saruman did after capturing Gandalf was to send some spies to the Shire - one of them was the famous squint-eyed Southerner.
Quote:
Had Saruman gone to the Shire straight away, he would have had two months to search for the Ring and to bring it to Orthanc. Last edited by Gordis : 10-01-2008 at 01:45 PM. |
|
10-01-2008, 02:41 PM | #6 |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 2,145
|
I'm being purely speculative here, but could it be possible that Sarumann thought that the Nine would somehow not find their way to Frodo's house?
But that of course does not quite add up with what happened in Bree. Did not the Southerner assist the Nine? Pointing out the room where Frodo, Sam, Pippin and Merry lived for example. Myself, I can't square Sarumann's actions and words relating to the hunt for the Ring. Is there something we're missing or is it a glaring inconsistency?
__________________
"Well, thief! I smell you and I feel your air. I hear your breath. Come along! Help yourself again, there is plenty and to spare." |
10-01-2008, 03:00 PM | #7 | |||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
10-01-2008, 08:23 PM | #8 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: On the Bay of Belfalas
Posts: 1,125
|
*sigh* The Eagles would have been spotted and the whole "destroy the Ring" gambit would have failed. As I have repeatedly posted, one troop of Uruks in the Sammath Naur would have been Middle-earth's undoing.
__________________
"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
10-01-2008, 03:42 PM | #9 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 987
|
Maybe PJ was right and Saruman really was serving Mordor, not himself?
__________________
~The DPR "Good work. Sleep well. I'll most likely kill you in the morning." |
10-01-2008, 06:06 PM | #10 |
Enting
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Next to a Pumpkin and near a mushroom!
Posts: 65
|
Possibly Saruman couldn't act quite independently as we all think. He seems to be both hiding some of his actions from Sauron and is also controlled by Sauron at least to some degree, having to speak to the dark lord, through the seeing stone.
Remember when Sauron tells Pippin to just say to Saruman that "this " (the ring) isn't for him. ? He couldn't risk leaving Orthanc himself without Sauron wanting to find out why. |
10-01-2008, 07:26 PM | #11 |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 2,145
|
One reason may be that Sarumann knew the Rangers were keeping an eye out on the area. Which leads to me a question which is sort of off-topic for this thread; where were all these Rangers in the miles between the Shire and Rivendell? Weren't there supposed to be more than Strider roaming the area? They certainly must have done a poor job of it by the looks of it.
In any case, the Red Book of Westmarch is not an all-telling account of what happened that summer and fall so there may be plans by Sarumann that failed but never saw the light of day from the POV of the 'good side'.
__________________
"Well, thief! I smell you and I feel your air. I hear your breath. Come along! Help yourself again, there is plenty and to spare." |
10-02-2008, 04:04 AM | #12 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
|
Quote:
And if Saruman knew of them, it might be because they had at times hindered his plans or spies.
__________________
We are not things. |
|
10-02-2008, 04:51 AM | #13 | |||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
|
I still don't think the Rangers at Sarn Ford would have hindered the head of the White Council in any way. Note also that the Dunlending, Saruman's spy, had been to the Shire itself and was able to compile the lists of names and maps. The Rangers let him in, despite his orcish looks - and I think it was because he could proove that he was a dealer from Isengard coming on trade business. It was Saruman's authority that let him through.
Quote:
Quote:
But where to? Here Saruman likely considered 2 possibilities: 1. On one hand, if Gandalf really wanted the Ring for himself, he wouldn't send the ringbearer to Rivendell, instead he would find a safe place outside of the Shire for the hobbit to hide. To trace the hobbit to this place would then require time and some cooperation from the hobbit's relatives or friends in the Shire. In this task Saruman mannish spies (or better even hobbit spies) would have a lot of advantages over the nazgul. The latter didn't really inspire trust in anyone and would likely be unable to get the necessary information from the hobbits. 2. On the other hand, indeed Saruman may have pondered the meaning of the dream-words sent to Boromir and Faramir that Galin has quoted. Quote:
Seek for the Sword that was broken: In Imladris it dwells; There shall be counsels taken Stronger than Morgul-spells. There shall be shown a token That Doom is near at hand, For Isildur's Bane shall waken, And the Halfling forth shall stand. It Saruman believed the authority who sent the dream (and it had to be either the Valar or Eru), then it was simply useless to try to prevent the Ring from coming to Rivendell. It was preordained and trying to hinder it would only compromise Saruman both before the White Council and before Sauron. In both cases it was wiser to stay in Isengard, and keep Sauron appeased over the Palantir. Last edited by Gordis : 10-02-2008 at 05:10 AM. |
|||
10-01-2008, 09:22 PM | #14 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 455
|
Saruman's actions are really not even worth further thought compared to Sauron's. At the point in time where he knew Frodo had the Ring, had he *literally* bent all his will and resources towards it, it would have been a short story instead of a novel. That is truly inexplicable to me.
__________________
Don't curse the darkness - light a candle. |
10-01-2008, 10:03 PM | #15 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 222
|
In The Hunt for the Ring text C (Christopher Tolkien is inclined to think this version is the latest in order of composition) the Riders arrive at Orthanc the same day Gandalf escapes (see note 15 and compare Appendix B).
Saruman is then said to have believed that the Ring had gone and was already on its way to Rivendell, and at once he sent out many spies. He thought that he might have hindered the Riders rather than helped, and he knew of the Ranger-guard. It is noted here too that Saruman knew of the oracular dream-words and of Boromir's mission. Well, that's that version anyway. In general here, Tolkien himself is still in the process of finding out the details of Middle-earth. |
10-01-2008, 10:06 PM | #16 |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 2,145
|
Interesting. It's easy to forget just much detail we're looking into and that this history is basically the product of one man's mind.
__________________
"Well, thief! I smell you and I feel your air. I hear your breath. Come along! Help yourself again, there is plenty and to spare." |
10-02-2008, 10:47 AM | #17 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 987
|
Quote:
I don't think Sauron knew Frodo had the Ring until he put it on and claimed it at Mount Doom.
__________________
~The DPR "Good work. Sleep well. I'll most likely kill you in the morning." |
|
10-02-2008, 01:29 PM | #18 | |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: On the Bay of Belfalas
Posts: 1,125
|
Quote:
__________________
"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
|
10-08-2008, 05:34 PM | #19 |
Salt Miner
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: gone to Far Harad
Posts: 987
|
Once Gandalf escaped, Saruman’s position was doubly dangerous: the Nazgûl knew or suspected that he had betrayed Sauron, a bit of information that would not be long in reaching their master. Gandalf knew that Saruman had betrayed his sacred trust, his duty, and his Order. Had Saruman left Orthanc, he would have been exposed, weaker outside his fortress, and liable to capture himself by the Elves once Gandalf reported his imprisonment.
Tolkien points out (in Letters, if I recall aright) that had one of the Wise obtained the Ring, he would have followed the policies pursued by Sauron in order to fight Sauron, building up his power and using proxies and lieutenants to wage war against Mordor. Saruman was already in that mindset, having been corrupted by lust for the Ring because he coveted it. (Hence the commandment against coveting.) |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Summer Goals | Tessar | General Messages | 25 | 05-24-2008 08:56 AM |
Theological Opinions , PART II | jerseydevil | General Messages | 993 | 03-22-2007 05:19 AM |
Summer Camp | thrawn96 | General Messages | 6 | 07-07-2000 12:49 AM |