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08-15-2006, 02:12 PM | #1 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Iran and Iraq-problems-outlook-discussion
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In reality, it is a matter of culture and upbringing. Something that is not easy to change, but not impossible either. Though sometimes I wonder when even intelligent people have such a hard time seeing it.
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08-15-2006, 02:16 PM | #2 | |
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08-15-2006, 02:36 PM | #3 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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08-15-2006, 09:20 PM | #4 | |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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08-24-2006, 05:36 AM | #5 | ||
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I'm going to respond to most of your post tomorrow, for it's very late at night for my time zone. But I wanted to respond to this part of your post right now.
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08-25-2006, 04:19 AM | #6 |
Elf Lord
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Lief, thanks once again for a measured discussion. Lang may yer lum reek! I'm going to pick up just a couple of these points.
You know your history, so you shouldn't need to be reminded that the vast majority of Saddam's crimes were committed in the 1980s, when we were happy to support him. I know there's no statute of limitations on genocide, but it seems absolutely clear that any sense of "bringing Saddam to justice" or "freeing the Iraqi people" took second place, far behind "what suits our interests just now". That's one of the many reasons that the claim of a moral basis for the war just sticks in my throat. (If you're interested, many people on the Left DID support the war, particularly the far left, precisely for this reason. The much-reviled Guardian [www.guardian.co.uk], the most left-wing mainstream paper in the UK, ran several commentators throughout who thought that it was worth it to see Saddam banged up.) On the "everyone slags each other off, they're all the same" question, while I am sure you are right, in general terms, it is important not to be blinded to the propaganda in this particular case. There are countless examples, from Colin Powell's (remember him?) "WMD" photos, accepted uncritically by a fawning media, to the Jessica Lynch saga. The government and media collaborated in generating this propaganda specifically aimed at manipulating our beliefs about the war. It seems to have worked. On the predictions front, I agree no-one was perfect, but I am amazed that you don't see that the anti-war groups got far, far nearer the mark than the pro-war groups. Which predictions, specifically, did the pro-war groups get right? Money. Let me trace this logic. One country bombs the bejasus out of another country and therefore feels that it has a moral imperative to be compensated? An interesting service industry. Do you see how this kind of "morality" is slightly repugnant to the most of the world? An example: I read a personal account from an Iraqi (woman) whose brother's engineering company bid to the CPA to repair a damaged bridge for around $300k. The contract was awarded to a US company for $5m. Saddam had struck big deals with Russian and French oil companies, and was clearly planning to freeze the US oil industry out once sanctions were lifted. He was also selling his oil in Euros, not US dollars, which, IMO was the final nail in his coffin as far as the US was concerned. |
08-25-2006, 01:30 PM | #7 | |||||||
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During World War 2, we had to fight alongside Stalin against Hitler. Hitler was the greater threat to everyone at that time. In the same way, in the Cold War we needed Iraq's support. The Communists were taking over countries through coups and attacks and then Russia was stripping them of all their resources and pooling them into itself. They wanted to force their controlling, economically impoverishing, police state ideology around the world. They were one of the worst threats to our national security ever, partly because of their nuclear arsenal. They had to be stopped, and if you have to support a devil like Saddam to slow the advance of the bigger devil in Russia, sometimes that may just be what you have to do. I agree that freeing the Iraqi people came second to our national security on both occasions, and it was not the main reason for our attacking Iraq in 2003. WMDs were. Yet the fact that we were taking such evil out of power and seeking to replace them with democracy does morally justify our national security actions. Quote:
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Here's one disagreeable story that came out about that just yesterday: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5281052.stm When it comes to things like the Jessica Lynch story, you know, I'm glad that that rather dramatic story was told. Uplifting things do happen in Iraq as well, such as civilians coming forward and thanking our troops, or successful missions and operations against the enemy. It's good to hear a rather glamorous story too, amidst all the muck of war. And I don't believe for a second that hearing about things like that is making anybody think the war any less horrible than it actually is. Those sorts of sensational stories don't come out very often, and before this war, I don't think civilian populations have ever been so completely deluged in media information about how grisly war is, blow by blow, as the American population is now because of the media. Today we learn all the horrible things and we see photos of all of those things too. This has drained our morale to the utter low point it is at now, in spite of the fact that we've actually had far fewer casualties in this war than in almost any other war we've ever fought, have had major political successes in Iraq and are building up the military still to replace our troops. The anti-war side is getting a lot of support because the media shows photos and describes in detail every incident of casualties on our side, and many media groups show none of the successes! I mean, honestly. I go to BBC News and find almost nothing from Iraq but disaster. Then I got to CNN and find stories of our people hunting down insurgents that are completely not covered at BBC. Why? Because BBC is more left wing, and CNN more right wing. But BBC doesn't give a balanced account; only one side. I'm sure there are news agencies that do the opposite, but on the right. Oh, fiddlesticks. It's all very murky, but I agree with you that one must never be blinded by one-sided accounts of what's happening. Wherever the propaganda is coming from. I guess that's one of the reasons why I read both CNN and BBC, regularly. Quote:
The main incorrect pro-war prediction that I recall was that we'd find WMDs. Though I must confess, I didn't so closely examine the pre-war predictions on either side as I probably should have, so I can't give you a fully educated response. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-25-2006, 05:35 PM | #8 | ||
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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Voting for any party is not going to accomplish CRAP unless that party is willing to be serious about the world's threats, and the Demobrats are about as likely to do that as Princess Diana is rising from the grave. No matter how bad the Republicans are right now, and I say pretty imcompetent-the Democrats are going to toast this country in a bath of Marxist politics. Hillary wanted to make buying your own health care insurance a criminal offense, as in, you go to jail. Yeah, she might be the Dems Candidate. The Demobrats just feel burned because dear Prince Albert II didn't get to be prezzy.
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ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide Last edited by hectorberlioz : 08-25-2006 at 05:47 PM. |
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08-25-2006, 07:34 PM | #9 | |
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And since you mentioned it....The insurance system as it stands now (private) ABSOLUTELY sucks....but you probably don't have to deal with them as much as I do...of course, my handicapped daughter's "state run" medicaide is even worse! Her chiropractor treats her for free rather than involve himself with the clunky, funky, sucky state system so many Pubs are fond off...anything to keep money in the pockets of the have's....pawn the have not's needs on the "private sector" or the *state*.......Ronald Regan!!
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08-25-2006, 05:44 PM | #10 | |
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12-21-2007, 01:09 AM | #11 |
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03-31-2008, 02:58 PM | #12 |
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Some very nice pictures from Iraq:
http://www.michaelyon-online.com/ind...&Itemid=55#yvC
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05-19-2008, 10:00 PM | #13 | ||||||||
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In so far as Iraq was in a quagmire 2004-2007, our current progress can be defined as success because of all the points I previously posted. We are on top of the situation. To get out of that quagmire: 1) An overcoming of Al-Qaeda In Iraq by our military forces, resulting in 2) a decrease of violence 3) The people, Imams and other clerics and other groups side with the US/Iraqi forces, and not Al Qaeda in order to achieve their pursuit of peace and/or opportunities for work and a living. 4) The Maliki government begins to meet objectives. So yes, the overall objectives HAVE changed from 2002 and 2003. But things went badly and we had to get out of said quagmire. President Bush's "surge" has worked, as was acknowledged by most prominent Democrat leaders. I'm defining this as a success on the above criteria for our present concerns in Iraq. The WMDs issue has little to do with anything at this point. And because of the continuing better news coming from Iraq, we must stay there to insure it stays that way. We need to stay until Iran [is neutralized] and Syria stop their inflow of weapons to insurgents. Quote:
2)You're correct, the complications have multiplied. And it is obviously the most mountainous obstacle. But that's the main mission. That's what we're fixing right now, and the results are looking better. This connects with objective #3. 3) Difference of opinion. Quote:
2) True enough. Nevertheless, it is still good news that they have shunned Al Qaeda. Sad, hard lessons. As I said above, my definitions of current success are based on the fact that we were in really bad shape two years ago, and now we are on top of the situation. Quote:
Acceptable level of violence: in the lower percentage points 1-9%. Of course we can't achieve that if we withdraw. Same with Al-Qaeda activity. Zero is the preferred level of activity. In both cases, we stay there until it is manageable by Iraqi forces. Quote:
For a general survey of what happened in Basra, this from Fred Kagan*: *(please note that this article is from the 1st of April) Quote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/12/wo...ll&oref=slogin Maliki successfully took over Basra, Mophead al-Sadr's fort location. Here's why dethroning Sadr is tricky: He often backed Maliki, so obviously Maliki doesn't want to destroy that infrastructure of support. From what I've read Maliki's move has been heartening to the people in Basra and for the Iraqi Army troops. Here's to hoping we see Mophead's complete political clout on a stake tomorrow. Considering that a large amount of political influence used to rest on Sadr's influence, and the fact that Maliki has taken Basra and cut down Sadr's influence...the Iraqi government's uniting power to itself is succeeding. This is probably the most important story of Iraq right now, so it's not over. Which means your saying Maliki is "unable" is premature. Quote:
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The mission in Iraq isn't over, but violence has gone down from the worst months of 2004-06. Maliki's moves show that he is leading, as opposed to letting Sadr have his cake and eat it. I should point out that most of the news from Iraq right now is the Basra scene, and not from everywhere in Iraq. We are succeeding. I should also note that while violence is only even with 2004 statistics, the circumstances now are different than in 2004. Insurgents who sided with Al Qaeda to earn money or because they wanted the US out have stopped joining, and our US troops are being helped by former insurgents to capture caches of weapons. So the political tide has changed against Al Qaeda and in favor of us. This is probably the most crucial element to our current successes. But it doesn't mean only that we're winning, but that Iraqis are tired and want a solution. This time they are coming to us. That previous paragraph concedes: Al Qaeda came to Iraq where it would not have before, and that the insurgents were Iraqis who were tired of US occupation (in addition to other sources of insurgents like Syria, Iran and Egypt).
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05-20-2008, 03:42 AM | #14 |
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05-20-2008, 02:11 PM | #15 |
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I hope also that you answer this interesting question Hector. Thanx
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05-21-2008, 01:51 PM | #16 |
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So (speaking as someone who thinks Bush is a disaster as president as well...) are your posts made simply to ridicule the administration and point out how corrupt and incompetent they have been in regards to Iraq? You wont get any arguments from me with that opinion but you’ve sure spent an awful lot of energy condemning the easily condemnable without listing what it is you think should be done instead. I mean we can scream about WMD’s all day in an attempt to find the five people still left in the world who still believe fervently they exist or existed but is there really a point? And don’t confuse poor hector with a Bush yahoo so much as hes the main resident conservative apologist here and has to speak to the party line no matter how unfortunate a position it puts him in.
The fact is for better or worse weve messed things up in Iraq. Personally I feel when you’ve razed your neighbors house, even if it was done by corrupt incompetent bozos acting in your name, you have SOME obligation to fix things not simply dust your hands off and say this was a mistake therefore we are leaving. So I guess my question to you (and other people who have issue with the situation in Iraq – and, as I said, I include MYSELF in that group) is what do we do now? Hopefully your answer is not simply “get out” and let it fix itself. My thinking is the first most important step is get BUSH out of office so that someone else (anyone else!) can approach the issue with a more competant approach who hasnt bankrupted themselves reputation wise as the Bush Administration has. As to what that fix would be to be honest Im not completely sure. It should involve some sober realization as to what exactly weve gotten ourselves into and how long it will actually take to get things to a point where minimum manditory achievements have been met. But what if that means a long term presence...
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05-21-2008, 06:10 PM | #17 | |
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You are asking me to come with solutions to problems your administration created, your country has caused, and your country is up to its knees in. Your own former Secretary of State, Colin Powell, infamously said: "If you break it, it's yours." I just hope you realize, I hope I am making myself crystal clear, that I am not American, this is not my nation that has so unapologetically messed up. If you really are interested in what Norway's gov't advised USA on, I suggest you get yourself a few hours of reading time and search for the words "allies", "UN", "international community", "Norway", "WMD's" and "Hans Blix" and you will find exactly what you need. I will not be sitting here and reading that you expect me to list the numerous ways that could have averted this catastrophe. And if you are interested in some decent alternatives that have been put forth by your fellow Americans, I suggest you look at Biden's plan for Iraq and other plans similar to it. In the end your country, the USA, are at a point where there are no good alternatives. There are only bad alternatives, and really bad alternatives, and so whatever improvement in policy and diplomacy that can be achieved, it will not be optimal. Getting out is a bad idea, staying is a bad idea. Your country was so emphatically warned of this before the war. I myself sat in amazement at the stupidity of the invasion and so I don't tolerate not for one nanosecond any delegating of blame to anyone but the nation's that decided to invade(!)
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05-21-2008, 06:35 PM | #18 | |
Elf Lord
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Restitution has to start with an acknowledgement of the wrong. The very first thing that has to happen is that you have to kick that murderous regime out of office. Then there must be clear statements and policy action focused on righting the wrong. There must also be accountability: those who perpetrated the wrong should be held to account. This means Bush, Bliar, but especially the likes of Rumsfeld. The Iraq Study Group showed the way forward: regional talks involving Turkey, Iran, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, with a view to establishing a multinational peacekeeping force. This could facilitate the withdrawal of US troops. But the disgrace of the act that has been perpetrated in Iraq will haunt the reputation of the West for many years. |
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05-22-2008, 02:04 PM | #19 | |||||||
Quasi Evil
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Im not interested in official Norwegian policy on Iraq. Im simply interested in what people who post here and who have issues with what happened in Iraq think would be the best way to PROCEED from where we stand. A simple question. A none hostile question. And one fellow mooters have already started to ponder. Quote:
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[comment deleted by Eärniel] The truth is that most people (EVEN here in America believe it or not!) had great disagreements with the war and how it was run. And now almost everyone thinks it was handled badly (to put it mildly). So to sit here and site nonsense about WMD’s as if its still relevant is silly when no one believes the long dead WMD argument anymore anyway. [comment deleted by Eärniel]
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05-22-2008, 02:20 PM | #20 | |||
Quasi Evil
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And anyway I don’t really think the Iraqi people are looking for that really. They just want things to improve. Not for Bush to be jailed. For the most part, most Iraqis are of the mind whats done is done. Now PLEASE can we make things better here. Quote:
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