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#1 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
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Dwarves?
Did the Dwarves wear war masks? My brother just asked me; my intuitive response would be that they did in the First Age, but not necessarily later, but I'm really not sure about that. Anyone here know?
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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#2 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Area 51
Posts: 116
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I think what you're saying is basically right.
There were masks in the first age but, I don't think we hear too much about then in the later history. I seem to recall that the masks were more like visors that were part of the helmet and could be lifted. I also believe they were described as frightening to look upon. Turin wore a dwarf mask that was made by Telcher (same dwarf who made Narsil/Anduril)
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#3 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
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Not sure if they were actually masks, or really frightening helmets. I tend to think the latter, since I reckon the Dwarves would prefer something solid and most likely metal as protection in battle. And I recall vaguely having read that the helmets helped protect the Dwarves from the Dragon-fire.
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#4 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: London
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I've always pictured them as lookin like big trible masks, obviously made of Steel or some such metal. The descriptions of Túrin wearing one and the description of the Dwarves wearing them, led me to think this.
Just my personal image though, what do you think?
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#5 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Area 51
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Here is a passage from Unfinished Tales describing the Helm of Hador (also known as The Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin), the same helm worn by Turin:
Quote:
I picture something similar looking to the helm found at Sutton Hoo ("Google it" if your not sure what I'm referring to). The find at Sutton Hoo would be of huge interest to any one interested in England's medieval history and living in the late 1930's (a key excavation date). It seems plausible that Tolkien's depiction of Dwarven helms would have been impacted by this archaeological find.
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#6 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Quote:
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#7 |
Elven Warrior
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Hi Eärniel,
I think you are correct. As far as I know the Sutton Hoo helmet does not have a movable visor. I also agree that the dwarven helms had movable visors. When I started talking about the Sutton Hoo helmet I had said "something similar looking". I didn't mean to imply anything beyond appearance. Another interesting aspect of the Sutton Hoo helmet is that it has a dragon head in the center of the forehead. Turin's helm was also adorned with a dragon.
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Stand, Men of the West! Stand and wait! This is the hour of doom. Last edited by Wilhelm : 10-15-2010 at 09:35 AM. |
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#8 | ||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Quote:
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#9 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: London
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Sorry Wilhelm but that description that you quoted is from page 98 in UT, this part of the story is before Túrin ever goes to Nargothrond and finds the Dwarf mask.
What im saying is the Helm already has a visor, therefore the Dwarf mask could not have been a visor.
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----------- Then Sauron spake and said thou trall, the price thou askest is but small. |
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#10 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2010
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I always thought of the the visor as the dwarven mask. I do not recall there being a mask that was acquired later - can you point me to the finding of the mask in UT?
As an aside I'm not sure how you could wear a mask in conjunction with a visored helmet. I would think one would get in the way of the other.
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#11 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Sep 2008
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Quote:
Generally speaking, Christopher Tolkien did not incorporate his father's notes regarding the further history of the Helm into The Silmarillion or The Children of Húrin, as (I take it) the extended history was not fleshed out enough concerning actual narrative to work with. I note that in Alan Lee's illustration, the figure of a dragon appears to adorn the helm. I think this is in accord with the description as worded in The Children of Húrin itself (as published), while other texts seem to describe (more specifically) the head of a dragon. |
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#12 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: London
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Did everyone miss my point?
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----------- Then Sauron spake and said thou trall, the price thou askest is but small. |
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#13 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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If you will look up, I believe you will see that Wilhelm asked for clarification to understand what your point was about.
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