gandalf or the witch king

[orithil]

sorry guys i dont know if this ones been brought up before but who would win if those two actually had a show down in the book gandalf was not sure if he could beat the witch king but all the same he was going to chase him out onto pellanor fields before he had to go save faramier so who would win ????

[jammi567]

probally gandaf, as he's the more powerful, wepons-can't-hurt-me-now miar, rarther then the bound-to-a-ring nazgul.

[Landroval]

Gandalf the Grey kicked around all the the nazguls at the Wheatertop; though both Gandalf and the wiki are enhanced at the time of the Pellenor fields, my bet is on the white rider - all the way.

[Gordis]

'I galloped to Weathertop like a gale, and I reached it before sundown on my second day from Bree-and they were there before me. They drew away from me, for they felt the coming of my anger and they dared not face it while the Sun was in the sky. But they closed round at night, and I was besieged on the hill-top, in the old ring of Amon Sûl. I was hard put to it indeed: such light and flame cannot have been seen on Weathertop since the war-beacons of old.

`At sunrise I escaped and fled towards the north. I could not hope to do more

Does it sound like "kicking around all the nazguls", Landroval?

See also here:

Gandalf:
"The Shire," I said; but my heart sank. For even the Wise might fear to withstand the Nine, when they are gathered together under their fell chieftain. A great king and sorcerer he was of old, and now he wields a deadly fear. "

and here:

‘Then, Mithrandir, you had a foe to match you,’ said Denethor. ‘For myself, I have long known who is the chief captain of the hosts of the Dark Tower. Is this all that you have returned to say? Or can it be that you have withdrawn because you are overmatched?’
Pippin trembled, fearing that Gandalf would be stung to sudden wrath, but his fear was needless. ‘It might be so,’ Gandalf answered softly. ‘But our trial of strength is not yet come. And if words spoken of old be true, not by the hand of man shall he fall, and hidden from the Wise is the doom that awaits him

I don't say that the WK would have necessarily won, only that the match seemed almost even.

[Curubethion]

Gandalf:
"The Shire," I said; but my heart sank. For even the Wise might fear to withstand the Nine, when they are gathered together under their fell chieftain. A great king and sorcerer he was of old, and now he wields a deadly fear. "

Note my emphasis on this quote. We're talking about Gandalf vs. WK, one-on-one, not with the Nine together.

[Alcuin]

Gandalf the Grey who battled the Balrog in Moria is not the same as Gandalf the White who faced the Witch-king at the broken Gate of Minas Tirith.

From Letter 156:

…the ‘wizards’, as such, had failed; ... the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned. ... he remains similar in personality and idiosyncrasy, but both his wisdom and power are much greater. When he speaks he commands attention; the old Gandalf could not have dealt so with Théoden, nor with Saruman. ... he can act in emergency as an ‘angel’ – no more violently than the release of St Peter from prison. He seldom does so, operating rather through others, but in one or two cases in the War … he does reveal a sudden power: he twice rescues Faramir. He alone is left to forbid the entrance of the Lord of Nazgûl to Minas Tirith, when the City has been overthrown and its Gates destroyed — and yet so powerful is the whole train of human resistance, that he himself has kindled and organized, that in fact no battle between the two occurs: it passes to other mortal hands. ...

I take it that the two rescues of Faramir are Gandalf’s revealing his power:

[Gandalf] raised his hand, and from it a shaft of white light stabbed upwards. The Nazgûl gave a long wailing cry and swerved away; and with that the four others wavered

then later in the Pyre of Denethor, although I am uncertain how

Gandalf revealed the strength that lay hid in him; even as the light of his power was hidden under his grey mantle. He leaped up on to the faggots, and raising the sick man lightly he sprang down again

demonstrates that Gandalf possesses any special powers other than agility and considerable physical strength, but neither in any supernatural way. The “shaft of white light� is clearly supernatural, and if he has not injured one of the Nazgûl, he has certainly frightened them away.

Originally Posted by Gordis

I don't say that the WK would have necessarily won, only that the match seemed almost even

Denethor might not be completely aware of the events in Moria, although I believe he has learned from Pippin virtually everything the hobbit knew as well as much of what he guessed about Gandalf. Still, if he had been in contact with Sauron, and it is likely even at this point that he had already confronted the Dark Lord through the palantÃ*r, Sauron would naturally attempt to convince Denethor that Gandalf was unable to defeat his Black Captain, if for no other reason than to demoralize Denethor. It is not clear that Denethor knew what Gandalf was, although Sauron certainly knew, and so the Witch-king likely knew, too. But that brings up this issue: Sauron’s knowledge, and hence the Witch-king’s as well, was somewhat dated: it was based upon Saruman’s certainties, which were no longer in effect: Gandalf had been returned to Middle-earth to complete the mission originally assigned to five Istari, and probably with some further clarifications and refinements of what Tolkien calls ‘the Rules’ governing the actions of the Istari in order to meet the crisis that now came to full fruition. His conversation with Frodo, Gimli, Merry and Pippin in “The Quest of Ereborâ€� in Unfinished Tales shows him self-reflective on how much he had changed after his return to Middle-earth.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Does it sound like "kicking around all the nazguls", Landroval?

See also here:


and here:

I don't say that the WK would have necessarily won, only that the match seemed almost even.

Nay, for as you quoted, Gandalf said "Even the Wise might fear to withstand the Nine, when they are gathered together under their fell chieftain."

I'm fairly certain that Tolkien wrote somewhere in the Letters that Gandalf's power was roughly equivalent to all Nine Riders, so that unless the Eight were just pansies who went around saying 'Boo!', he was probably significantly more powerful than the Witch-king. If I find it, I'll let you know.

[Landroval]

It is also mentioned in the appendix that the wiki feared Boromir I. Moreover, the original istari are said to be "mighty, peers of Sauron" - cf the The Istari, Unfinnished Tales; and in the letter #210 it is stated that the nazgul "have no great physical power against the fearless", among which I would firstly qualify Gandalf.