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01-18-2005, 05:52 PM | #1 | ||
the Shrike
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LoTR Discussion project; Book II Chapters 9 and 10
Chapter IX: The Great River
Image courtesy of Karen Fonstad's "The Atlas of Tolkien's Middle-Earth". In this chapter, the Fellowship have just left Lothlorien. They initially travel through woodlands, journeying down the river; a harsh decision still to be decided, with regards to whether or not to travel East or West. There is a sense of dawdling, of oppression, of fear. The Fellowship appears to have no desire to hasten either the journey, or the decision to be made. However, Aragorn has a fear of time pressing. The first two days out of Lothlorien are repetitive. The dull grey hours passing without event. On the Third day, the landscape changes. The trees thin out, and fail … On the Eastern bank lies the Brown Lands, which lie between Mirkwood and Emyn Muil. There is no last vestige of grass: “No living blade of green”. What was the Cause of this wasteland?The landscape changes on the western bank as well. The trees have disappeared, to be replaced by flat, green plains. Instead of trees, there are great forests of reeds, blocking the view of the plains. There is a sense of exposure on the Eastern Bank, and hidden eyes on the Western Bank. To add to the Fellowship’s anxiety, there is no sign of life – except for birds, including Black Swans. Are the Black Swans messengers for Sauron? Quote:
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Is the Great River a frontier of War? A boundary, or division, both physically, and metaphorically?Over the next day or two, driven by the sense of exposure, and oppression, there is a hastening of the journey on the River Anduin. Fear is repetitively expressed in conjunction to a growth of insecurity as the Fellowship draws closer to its perceived Journey’s End. At this stage, the scenery has shifted as well. The Great River has broadened, and become shallower, and there are long stoney beaches on the East, with gravel-shoals, bleak wolds and a chill air. On the West Bank, the rolling meads have become withered grass amidst fen and tussock. This scenery is in direct contrast to the scenery from Lothlorien (which Frodo recalls at this point, remembering the lawns, fountains, sun, and gentle rain of Lothlorien). Tolkien uses the descriptive scenery as well as the feelings of the Fellowship to create a separation from one Act, to another. From the calm relaxation of Lothlorien, the Fellowship has now transferred to the uncertainty of the Great River. The Stoney Banks hint at dangerous shoals hidden in the depths of the River. This is reflected by the fact that there is little speech and laughter. Each member of the Fellowship appears isolated in his own thoughts. Boromir’s pre-occupation with both Frodo and the Ring seems to have intensified at this stage; Pippin notes the strange gleam in Boromir’s eye, his obsession seemingly expressed by his need to frantically paddle to his boat to catch up with Frodo… By the end of the Fourth Day from Lothlorien, we have the First Interlude between Sam and Frodo, on the Camp on the Eyot. Sam tells Frodo about the “log with eyes” on the river, and again, we have a sense of eyes being everywhere the Fellowship goes. Is this “obsession” with eyes (and being watched) somehow tied into the symbolism of Sauron – the Great Eye?Of course we find out from both Frodo and Aragorn that this has not been the first sighting of the little “footpad”. It is decided that the Fellowship will now keep watch at nights. By the Fifth day, the company are on their guard, paddling for long spells, journeying mostly by night, and resting during the day – lying hidden. The days pass by without event… until the Seventh day out from Lothlorien. The weather is still grim, grey, and overcast with the chill wind from east still haunting the Fellowship. But there is now a New Moon casting pools of faint light, yellow and pale green…. On the Eighth day: the shore-banks begin rising. The Fellowship has reached the Grey hill country of Emyn Muil. Deep brakes of thorn and sloe, brambles and creepers. There are Birds again in the sky. Hunting Eagles, far from the Mountains. Are they the messengers of Sauron, or the work of Gollum? (This can probably be discussed in conjunction with the Black Swans mentioned earlier – also, interesting to tie into a discussion of how traditionally, the Evil (Morgoth et al) seldom has dominion of the Air (realm of Manwe).)The appearance of the Hunting Eagle has made the Fellowship leery of travelling until it is fully dark. The Eighth Night is silent, and windless. The grey east wind that has until now dogged them, has faded away. It is unerringly quiet. Almost like the Calm before the Storm. For the first time, Aragorn, the Natural Leader of the Fellowship, is not familiar with this leg of the journey. It is to be a journey in the dark, through unfamiliar territory. Sam is appointed Watchman in the leading boat. Boromir counsels that this is Madness.
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords Last edited by BeardofPants : 01-18-2005 at 06:21 PM. |
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01-18-2005, 05:54 PM | #2 | |||||||
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
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Luckily for the Fellowship, Sam spots rocks peering up from the water, shaped like jagged teeth, and Aragorn admits that he may be out of his Reckoning. The teeth rising from the water are Foreshadowing the Events to come.
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First inclination that the grey cloaks of Lorien may be working some kind of magic? Spurning the malice of the orcs?A Great Dark Shape flies South from Mordor, and is shot down by Legolas, with his Great Bow, a gift from Galadriel. The Beast in the sky causes Frodo’s wound to ache. The winged creature – blacker than the pits in the night – is Felled. Legolas’ Great Bow of Lorien appears to have saved them from the maws of this Great Beast. Would the company have fallen then and there without Galadriel’s gifts? To what degree did Galadriel fore-see the need for these gifts?After escape from the confrontation with the Orcs on the East Bank, the Fellowship travelled back upstream on the western bank to find a suitable landing spot. No camp was made, no fire was lit. They merely huddled in the boats, contemplating the next leg of the journey, and speculating what the great black shape was. Frodo is fearful of mentioning what the Great Black Shape is, but Boromir is eager to engage Frodo into conversation about it – why? Quote:
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Why is there no moon present in Caras Galadhon? Quote:
What do you think is meant by this comment? (feel free to link to appropriate threads)Frodo mentions Galadriel’s ring – and we have the issue of power. From whence does it come from? Quote:
After the events from the night before, is this a “lucky fog”?At this point, Boromir pushes to abandon the boats and strike for Minas Tirith, pressing for a decision on Journey’s End. However, Aragorn speaks of the Ancient Way to Rauros foot: The North Stair – the high seat upon Amon Hen, made in the days of the Great Kings. Boromir is reluctant to pursue this path, but agrees when it is clear that Frodo will follow Aragorn. It is decided that Aragorn and Legolas will scout ahead for a path to bear the Fellowship southwards. It is mentioned that there used to be a portage path following the Great River towards Sarn Gebir, and it is Aragorn’s plan to attempt to find it, as there were no roads built by the Long Dead Gondorion Kings, and the rapids are unpassable. After two or three hours, Aragorn and Legolas return with good news. Quote:
Why was there no attempt by Boromir to molest Frodo for the Ring, or to persuade him to go with him to Minas Tirith? Or at the very least, to kidnap him?The boats are transported in several journeys along the portage-way, along with their baggage. The boats are less heavy to carry than thought. Again, the presence of the elves is felt! Discussion Point: What wood would they have been made out of? Construction?The land is difficult to cross: it is a tumbled waste of grey limestone-boulders, and hidden holes, shored with weeds, and bushes, brambles, sheer dells, boggy pools, all sloping upwards, away from the river. The fog worked to block their view of the river to the left, but the company could still hear it. Eventually, the portage-way sloped back to a shallow pool edging the Anduin. There is to be no further passage on foot, as the shore beyond rose into a grey sheer cliff… The short afternoon had passed when the Fellowship made camp. The cloudy dusk closing in on them. The camp was made, and a watch was kept. After spending the day transporting the boats, the Fellowship was too tired to attempt the Argonath by night. It is decided that they would tackle it during the day. It rained that night, but was otherwise uneventful. The Tenth day sees the thinning of the fog. The Company kept close to western shore, and the steadily rising cliff-faces. It was still raining. At this point, the channel narrowed, and the water ran more swiftly, leading ever onwards, towards the Silent Wardens of a Kingdom Long Vanished. The Argonath. Quote:
A King returning from Exile? The day is a long one, and by the time the Company pass the Argonath, it is late afternoon. They arrive in the Long oval lake – the pale Nen Hithoel, which is fenced by steep grey hills, clad in trees. Upon the Southern end of the Lake, there were three peaks: Amon Lhaw (Hill of Hearing), Tol Brandir (isolated from Lhaw & Hen by the river which flowed around it), and Amon Hen (Hill of Sight). There are the Seats of the Great Kings on the Amon Lhaw, and Amon Hen, but no man or beast had set foot on Tol Brandir. There is a short rest, before the Company hastened to reach the peaks by nightfall. The Tenth day of their journey over. The Last Stage of Quest before them – where a decision will have to be made for the next leg of their journey...
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords Last edited by BeardofPants : 01-18-2005 at 06:29 PM. |
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01-18-2005, 06:13 PM | #3 | |||||||
the Shrike
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Chapter X: The Breaking of the Fellowship.
Image courtesy of Karen Fonstad's "The Atlas of Tolkien's Middle-Earth". The chapter opens with Aragorn leading the Company down the right arm of the river towards the western side, underneath the Shadow of Tol Brandir. A green lawn runs at the feet of Amon Hen. The gentle slopes of the mountain are clad with trees, and a mountain spring feeds the lawn. The company made camp here at Parth Galen, and kept watch. It is during Frodo’s watch, that Aragorn breaks out of his restless sleep. Quote:
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After the company breaks their fast, Aragorn states that a decision must be made: Will the Company travel West to Gondor, or East to Mordor? He also states that there is little time to make a decision, as there may be orcs bearing towards them on Amon Hen. He also states that the choice must stay with the Ring Bearer. Quote:
Frodo wanders aimlessly in the wood, and his feet lead him towards the slopes of the hill, coming across a path – the ruins of a road of long, long ago. He follows the cracked and worn path, split by roots of trees, until he reaches a grassy place, with rowan trees in its midst, a flat stone. Frodo sits upon the stone, staring east, listening to the voice of Rauros. He pondered all that he could remember of Gandalf’s words, but still comes no closer to making decision. His broodings are interrupted by a feeling of unfriendly eyes… but it was only Boromir, who wants to help Frodo make his decision, to persuade Frodo to turn West, towards Minas Tirith. Quote:
Discussion point: what would have happened if the Company struck West instead of East? What makes this route the “easy” way? Quote:
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It is interesting to note that Boromir sees himself as a benevolent King, NOT as a Steward of Gondor. To what degree is the ring working on Boromir? On his resentment against Aragorn (as heir of Gondor)?He continues to attempt to persuade Frodo to lend him the Ring, so that he may take up arms for Gondor. He counsels Frodo to use this chance to take rest and advice in Minas Tirith, THEN to make a decision. Quote:
To what extent is Frodo now reacting to the Ring? The idea of another using the Ring?At this point, the Madness that had been simmering in Boromir, spilled forth in its entirety. His fair face becomes hideously changed, a raging fire in his eyes. In response, Frodo slips on the Ring in attempt to evade his would-be attacker, who was even now accusing him of being a miserable trickster and selling out to the Enemy. Cursing Frodo, and all halflings, Boromir falls, as if from his own curse… he begins crying, aware that a madness has overtaken him temporarily – the madness of the Ring. He calls for Frodo to come back – that the madness had passed – but Frodo was long gone… Frodo runs away from Boromir, and soon comes upon the summit of Amon Hen. He espies a flat circle, paved with mighty flags, and surrounded with a crumbling battlement; and in the middle, set upon four carven pillars, was a high seat, reached by a stair of many steps. He sits upon the seat of Seeing – the Hill of the Eye of the Men of Numenor. He looks towards the East…. North….West… South… Everywhere he looks he sees the signs of war. Orcs issuing from a thousand holes… strife between Men and Elves and Fell Beasts… land aflame… dark ominous clouds over Mordor… smoke billowing from Lorien. Ships of War from Harad, wolves being deployed from Isengard. It is apparent that the Power of the Dark Lord was upon the Land. All hope left Frodo. And he felt the Eye searching for him…
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords Last edited by BeardofPants : 01-19-2005 at 12:04 AM. |
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01-19-2005, 12:01 AM | #4 | ||||||
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
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It mentions two powers warring – one is clearly Sauron … who is the other? Quote:
Whilst Frodo wrangled with his tough decision, the others remained at camp, speaking of other things but always they came back to Frodo. What would Frodo choose? What was taking him so long to reach a decision? Legolas wonders why they cannot cast a vote, and states that he would choose to journey to Minas Tirith, as would Gimli, but would chose not to abandon their Ring Bearer if the decision was to be to travel East into Mordor. Aragorn argues that it would not be feasible for ALL eight companions to traipse to Mordor, and suggests Himself, Sam and Gimli as companions to Frodo, counselling that Boromir should go to Minas Tirith with the others. And so it goes on, until Sam mentions that they’ve all got it wrong. That Minas Tirith isn’t right at all; that Frodo wouldn’t even be considering going West. It is as he apologises to Boromir, that the company notices that he’s missing… Sam continues speculating that Frodo KNOWS which way he has to go – to Mordor, but he’s afraid, deathly terrified. He’s too terrified to start, AND he means to go it alone. It seems that of all Frodo’s companions, it is Sam that knows him best. Aragorn states that Sam is likely right, and the remaining companions decide to call for Frodo, and in doing so, to hopefully come to a decision. At this point Boromir returns, sad and grim. Aragorn asks if Boromir has seen Frodo, and Boromir recounts what passed between the two companions, omitting how he tried to steal the Ring from Frodo. It has been about an hour since Boromir last spoke to Frodo, and Frodo’s subsequent vanishing. The companions are worried that something may have come of Frodo. Aragorn attempts to arrange a search party in pairs, but Sam hares off in one direction and Merry & Pippin in another, all calling for Frodo in clear, high hobbit voices. Madness seems to have descended upon the company. Aragorn sends Boromir off to find and protect Merry and Pippin, whilst Aragorn goes after Sam. Aragorn overtakes Sam, and tracks Frodo to the top of Amon Hen. Sam can’t keep up, but uses his hobbit sense to determine where Frodo went. Quote:
Does anyone else get a fit of the giggles at this imagery? Was Tolkien gently ridiculing Sam?Sam finally comes to the edge of the lawn of Parth Galen; espies a boat moving seemingly by itself down the bank. Sam runs after it, and throws himself toward the boat, missing, and almost drowning in the river. Frodo lugs Sam to the side of the boat, and returns to shore. He gets off the boat and argues with Sam that he must go alone. Sam in turn says that he’ll knock holes in all the boats first if Frodo won’t let him come. Discussion Point: The development of Sam and Frodo’s relationship – is it the Ideal of Platonic Love? Quote:
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Would Frodo have been able to make the journey without Sam? Without Sam’s optimism?Frodo and Sam paddle off, toward the last stage of their Quest. They land on the southern slopes of Amon Lhaw, shoulder their packs, and set off, seeking a path that would take them to the grey hills of the Emyn Muil, and eventually, down in to the Land Of Shadow. Mordor.
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords Last edited by BeardofPants : 01-19-2005 at 12:06 AM. |
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01-19-2005, 12:22 AM | #5 |
the Shrike
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Okay, I'm done - have at it. Apologies for the lengthiness of it.
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
01-19-2005, 02:39 AM | #6 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Brilliant BoP!
I'm at work now, will have to respond later.
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--Life is hard, and then we die. |
01-31-2005, 03:18 PM | #7 | |
Elven Warrior
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So I would say that there were more than two powers at work there |
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01-31-2005, 03:31 PM | #8 | |
Elven Warrior
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I think Sam's sentiments towards Frodo are clear. The way Sam holds Frodo's hand (both at Elrond's and when the finger is bitten off). Most revealing the moment when Shelob stings Frodo and JRR Tolkien comments that never in nature it is seen a fury more terrible than the one of a small creature with little teeths protecting the body of its fallen mate. Also the fact that Frodo had to leave from Gray Haven for Sam to be whole with Rosie. I think the only thing that kept the relationship on a Platonic dimension is that Frodo did not reciprocate Sam quite in the same way. Frodo also grew to be fond of Sam but never quite as deeply |
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01-31-2005, 05:34 PM | #9 |
Elf Lord
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Ever examined the relationship between a british officer and his "batman"? You'll find an ideal model for Sam and Frodo's reationship.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
01-19-2005, 12:48 PM | #10 | ||||||||||
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Great intro BoP
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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01-19-2005, 02:51 PM | #11 |
Elf Lord
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The Brown Lands...
I've never been able to uncover any information about the exact cause of the blight, other than Sauron gets the blame for it. As a side note, the withering of the Brown Lands leads to the seperation of the Ents and the Entwives... Anduin It was a border for Gondor during much of the second age. A lot of battles were fought against the Easterlings & Variags , but mostly on the eastern side. Gondor straddled Anduin remember, in fact Osgiliath lies on both sides the Anduin. From what I can gather the Anduin was more of a northern border. The Easterlings didn't have to cross the Anduin to get to Osgiliath, but they did get squeezed into traversing the narrower region between the Anduin and the Mountains of Shadow...
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
01-20-2005, 02:48 PM | #12 |
AngAdan
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Somewhere, UT, IIRC, the expanded explaination of of the Brown Lands is that they were the gardens of the the Entwives, and that Sauron destroyed them in the War of the Last Alliance to prevent the allied army from having their use during its march down the Aduin. Scorched Earch tactic to deny food to the enemy on the march.
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Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," |
01-20-2005, 03:14 PM | #13 | |
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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01-20-2005, 03:51 PM | #14 | |
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01-26-2005, 03:05 PM | #15 | |||
the Shrike
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
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01-20-2005, 02:49 PM | #16 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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all i can say is wow!!
not that i'd expect any less from ms. pants will have to read it now
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
01-26-2005, 03:22 PM | #17 | ||||||
the Shrike
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords Last edited by BeardofPants : 01-26-2005 at 03:32 PM. |
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01-26-2005, 05:16 PM | #18 | ||||
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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01-20-2005, 03:24 PM | #19 | ||
The Intermittent One
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