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10-23-2003, 02:40 PM | #1 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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Important: Chapter 15, "Of the Noldor in Beleriand."
Chapter 15, “Of the Noldor in Beleriand.”
Supplemental Readings: The Book of Lost Tales II, Chapter III, “The Fall of Gondolin.” The Shaping of Middle-Earth: "The Earliest Silmarillion," "The Quenta," and "The Earliest Annals of Beleriand" The Lost Road: "Quenta Silmarillion" and "The Later Annals of Beleriand" The War of the Jewels: “The Grey Annals,” 67 and 102; “The Later Quenta Silmarillion,” 99-102. Any additions or corrections welcome. Summary: A short Chapter (5 pages) but one that introduces to us the Kingdoms of Gondolin and Nargothond, and tells more about the older Hidden Kingdom, Doriath. Doriath was ruled by the Telerin Elwë Singollo, “Greymantle;“ called in Sindarin Elu Thingol. He was Lord of the Sindar, and married Melian the Maia; their daughter was Luthien the Fair. Turgon , whose wife was Elenwë (lost in the Crossing of the Helcaraxë) and his daughter Idril, was King of Gondolin. Turgon and Finrod are, of course, Noldor. The Chapter has two dramatic notes. In the beginning, after the account of the founding of Gondolin and Nargothond, little changed from the older accounts, we have Galadriel living in Doriath and talking with her friend Melian the Maia, and Melian questions her as to why the Noldor have come back to Middle-Earth, for she has guessed that they are not allowed to return, since no messages come from the Valar. She seems also to have guessed at the horror of the Kinslaying. Galadriel confirms that they left Valinor without the Valar's permission, and cannot return, but does not tell of the Kinslaying, the Oath, or the burning of the ships at Losgar. This seems odd to me, as Melian was her friend and hostess and the Sons of Fëanor quite the reverse; but, being wise as she was, perhaps she foresaw how this would inflame Thingol. He grew quite angry enough at the account of the Noldor leaving Aman to seek the return of the Silmarils, and the death of Finwë his friend. Melian makes two prophecies: that the Silmarils will not be recovered by the power of the Eldar, and that the swords and also the counsels of the sons of Fëanor would have two edges; meaning, I suppose, that they would be fell in battle, but crooked in words. Thingol, further inflamed by rumors, however, did not confront Galadriel about it, but her brothers Finrod and Angrod. Finrod apparently agreed with his sister and did not accuse his fellow Princes of the Noldor, but Angrod did not and told all of the truth, ending with the ringing declaration, "Wherefore should we that endured the Grinding Ice bear the name of kinslayers and traitors?" Thingol agreed, saying, however, that, though he would keep alliance with the Sons of Fëanor, that no-one in his realm would ever speak the language of the Noldor, that is, Quenya. It therefore became a language of lore, as Latin used to be, and Sindarin the spoken language of the Eldar of Middle-Earth. Finally, and seemingly randomly, the Chapter ends with an odd little pair of paragraphs, detailing the visit of Galadriel to Nargothond to attend a feast of all of the family of Finarfin. Finrod has no wife, she notes, after the immemorial manner of sisters. Why? He replies, "An oath I too shall swear, and must be free to fulfill it, and go into darkness. Nor shall anything of my realm remain that a son should inherit." The text notes that he loved Amarië of the Vanyar, who apparently declined to leave Valinor with him; as, of course, the Vanyar were notoriously fond of Valinor and the Valar. Now, as SGH has noted on Another Forum, this is strange for a number of reasons. He says that he shall swear an oath, and we know that it will be to aid Beren, and he died of it. But, why, "too?" Like the sons of Fëanor? Perhaps that had been the subject of conversation right before Galadriel started her sisterly inquiries. He seems to foresee his death, and the reasons for it. Why, then, did he take the oath to Beren? Was it so that he would indeed be killed and be free to return to the Halls of Mandos, and on reembodiment be reunited with his beloved Amarië of the Vanyar? It was then noted that "Not since that hour had such cold thoughts ruled him," so, apparently before then he was not eating his heart out for Amarië. But, IMHO, then, he foresaw that he would indeed be reunited with his beloved by that route, despite the Ban of the Valar. Thoughts? Another thing that struck me was the apparent disorder of JRRT’s early writings on this. At one point the even makes Luthien Turgon’s daughter. No wonder newbies get mixed up about Elven lineages. Two great pictures of Finrod Felagund: The Death of Finrod Felagund and Finrod Felagund.
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. Last edited by Attalus : 10-23-2003 at 02:45 PM. |
10-23-2003, 03:21 PM | #2 | ||
Queen of Nargothrond
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Also, if he decided to sacrifice himself so that he could return to Amarie, how could he have known that she was still free for him to persue at that point? It does say however, in the HoMe that "He dwells with Amarie in Valinor." Edited: Just to pic apart another piece of that text. Quote:
I had always interpreted the cold thoughts to relate to perhaps the happiness that he never knew in Middle-earth, because Amarie did not come with him, and upon Galadriel's inquiry, brought an unhappiness and reminder of a loss that he had long left behind and tried to forget.
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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10-23-2003, 06:00 PM | #3 | ||||
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Re: Important: Chapter 15, "Of the Noldor in Beleriand."
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10-23-2003, 06:11 PM | #4 | |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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Re: Re: Important: Chapter 15, "Of the Noldor in Beleriand."
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. Last edited by Attalus : 10-23-2003 at 06:12 PM. |
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10-23-2003, 06:13 PM | #5 | |
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10-23-2003, 06:21 PM | #6 | |
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10-24-2003, 12:29 AM | #7 | |
The Tall
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Hmmmm, I wonder if SGH would agree with me.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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10-24-2003, 12:41 AM | #8 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Something else I have been thinking about. In the Lay of Lethien, after the ten companions are dead, and Beren and Finrod are talking, Beren releases Finrod from his oath. I find that to be a strange time to do it. I mean what was Finrod going to do at that point. It wasn't like he would or could just say: okay, see ya. By that time, he was trapped with no escape, just like Beren, and he knew that without him, Beren would surely have died.
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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10-24-2003, 12:46 AM | #9 | ||
The Tall
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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10-24-2003, 01:02 AM | #10 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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10-24-2003, 03:01 AM | #11 | ||
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10-24-2003, 09:24 AM | #12 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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I agree that Finrod did not know that he would die after slaying the werewolf; he still felt bound by his oath and was trying to protect Beren. I further agree that Beren felt guilty, and was saying, in effect, "If you have a chance to escape, take it, don't worry about me."
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
10-24-2003, 10:01 AM | #13 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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10-24-2003, 11:29 AM | #14 | |||
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But now I intend to leave my favourite fanfic characters by themselves for a little while (they'll be back in a later chapter also), and ask a question. I'm thinking about what Galadriel said to Melian, when she was asked about what woe was on the heart of her and and her kin: Quote:
Quote:
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10-24-2003, 11:43 AM | #15 | |
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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10-24-2003, 12:06 PM | #16 | |
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10-24-2003, 12:13 PM | #17 | |
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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10-24-2003, 04:07 PM | #18 | |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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Oddly enough, (or not so oddly, perhaps ) I was reading my new copy of the 3rd edition of Tom Shippey's The Road to Middle-Earth, and I came across this passage:
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
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10-24-2003, 04:20 PM | #19 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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10-24-2003, 04:51 PM | #20 | ||
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
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