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05-05-2006, 06:54 PM | #1 | |
Elven Warrior
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Were the Valar “demoted” at the end of the Second Age?
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If the Valar’s task was to guide and protect the Children of Iluvatar, they did a pretty lousy job. The story of Elves and Men is filled with hatred, war, and suffering, much of which can be attributed directly to the Valar and much of which (no, not all) they could have prevented. The Valar had made mistakes on top of mistakes. They were perhaps too interested in their own happiness and definitely didn’t understand Elves and Men. When they realized that the Numenoreans were going to attack them (due to the influence of one of their own people, no less) they should have appreciated the magnitude of the situation. They could have sent an ambassador such as Eonwe to speak with the Numenoreans and perhaps counteract Sauron. Or (heaven forbid) one of the Valar could have left to comfort of Valinor and gone themselves. What did the Valar see fit to send? Threatening weather and cloud formations, nice choice. The Valar’s decision to fence themselves (and apparently many of the most beautiful things in the world) in the West and then ban the Numenoreans from visiting and then failing to take proper action when troubles arose, caused Eru to have to destroy thousands of his Children. Maybe this was the final straw. He then removed the temptation of Valinor from the Earth and let the Valar live their own lives without so much responsibility for the state of Middle Earth. A responsibility they had never really lived up to anyway. |
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05-06-2006, 10:28 AM | #2 |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
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Very interesting, CAB.
I have little to say, because I agree with you. Of course, the Valar did send the Istari... |
05-06-2006, 11:02 AM | #3 | |
Elven Warrior
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05-06-2006, 11:16 AM | #4 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
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go see my new theory in the ban of the valar thread ...
essentially discussing whether the valar were in fact, only one lazy fat man, a wiazrd of oz style character with bad breath and a fear of the common cold and who hated garlic?? ...or ... (will get back to you on this when i have some time - just having a quick look around now- while i have a mo - as i wait for someone to turn up to pick up a camera) best, BB |
05-06-2006, 02:05 PM | #5 | |
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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05-06-2006, 05:06 PM | #6 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
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And really, TD, don't you think that Ulmo and Tulkas and Osse couldn't deal with the Fleet themselves? They were Valar! I think, the Valar really didn't want to harm Numenoreans, they recognised their own failure and just didn't know what to do. Basically they resigned the Rule of Arda. |
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05-06-2006, 06:54 PM | #7 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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I think that Manwe felt that killing the Children of Eru was something he could not do without consulting Eru. It would have been like the Valar killing the elves.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
05-07-2006, 03:40 AM | #8 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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It could be that the Valar did recognise their own fault in the disaster and knew that an even bigger mess could be made in trying to set it right again. They may have asked Eru in that light to be taken off the case. Or Eru may have told them himself that he was tired of their screwing up and that Arda was better off without their interfering. And who knows, it may very well have been the idea from the start that Arda at one point would have to do without stewards, like a child that comes of age and doesn't require the help from his guardian any longer. Although I doubt it was planned to be in such a situation.
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05-07-2006, 01:41 PM | #9 | |||||
Elven Warrior
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05-07-2006, 01:51 PM | #10 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Also, I never said anything about surrendering, I just gave my idea about why the Valar called on Eru and didn't act directly themselves against Númenor.
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05-07-2006, 07:44 PM | #11 | ||||||
Elven Warrior
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Last edited by CAB : 05-07-2006 at 09:09 PM. |
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05-08-2006, 02:59 PM | #12 | ||||||
Elven Warrior
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Last edited by Landroval : 05-08-2006 at 03:01 PM. |
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05-12-2006, 03:53 PM | #13 | |||||||
Elven Warrior
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05-12-2006, 04:14 PM | #14 |
Elf Lord
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I agree with Landroval... and I think there's no point accusing them of evil as we don't know the possible consequences of any other action that could've been taken. Perhaps the outcome was the least-evil possible... and really the end wasn't that bad, and rather positive even.
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05-12-2006, 07:38 PM | #15 | ||||||
Elven Warrior
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Let’s leave the destruction of Numenor alone for a moment and look at an even more obvious mistake, the release of Melkor. I don’t see how this could be considered anything other than a screw up. The creator of evil is released and allowed to wander freely in Valinor, with all kinds of dire consequences. If it looks like a mistake, and smells like a mistake, and is made by someone who is known to be fallible (and Manwe was, because he wasn’t Eru) then it is probably a mistake. If we accept that the creation of the Dwarves was a mistake then I think the release of Melkor has to be considered one too. The results were much, much worse. I think the only other options were that the Valar were evil or had no free will (and I can’t agree with either of those). Quote:
Why did the Valar lay down their government if they were acting so wisely? Because they were in real peril? Let’s consider that for a moment. Landroval, I won’t argue the point that the Numenoreans could cause ruin in Valinor (as odd as that seems to me) because, as you point out, Tolkien said so himself in letter 131. (By the way, just after this statement, he wrote that the Valar appealed to Eru and received the “power and permission to deal with the situation”. This directly contradicts your opinion on these matters.) But they had to get there first didn’t they? Do you think that Ulmo and Osse were powerless to stop the Numenorean fleet. I don’t think so. There are many cases of the Valar and their servants sinking ships. They also succeeded in making Valinor all but unreachable after the Noldor returned to Middle Earth in the First Age. If your opinions are correct they had plenty of time to do this again, because they had determined that the Numenoreans were irredeemable a thousand years before. With all their wisdom, wouldn’t the Valar have assumed that an attack could come from Numenor? If the Valar decided that the Numenoreans were a lost cause, then you can’t argue that they allowed the fleet to reach Valinor in the hope that they would turn back. And what would they turn back to anyway? Causing problems for the people of Middle Earth instead, what else? This also brings up the question of why the Valar didn’t destroy Numenor long ago if it inhabitants were beyond all hope. They were allowed plenty of time to cause evil for the other people of Arda. Why, if their destruction was simply a matter of time? If the Valar were doing such a wonderful job, then why did they give up their government (or have it taken from them)? It isn’t because they were around only to combat Melkor, he had been gone for over three thousand years. To me all this just doesn’t add up. I respect your opinion Landroval, and your defense of Manwe, but I can’t agree with these ideas. Quote:
Last edited by CAB : 05-12-2006 at 07:44 PM. |
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05-13-2006, 03:45 AM | #16 | ||
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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05-13-2006, 06:19 AM | #17 | |||||||
Elven Warrior
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"Now the lightnings increased and slew men upon the hills, and in the fields, and in the streets of the city; and a fiery bolt smote the dome of the Temple and shore it asunder, and it was wreathed in flame... When therefore the last portent came they heeded it little. For the land shook under them, and a groaning as of thunder underground was mingled with the roaring of the sea, and smoke issued from the peak of the Meneltarma. But all the more did Ar-Pharazon press on with his armament." They weren't even afraid of the host of eagles lead by Thorondor; the eagles are one of the most formidable hosts in all Arda, having defeated the dragons, while the Eagle King marred Melkor single-handedly. |
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05-13-2006, 06:51 AM | #18 | |
Elf Lord
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isn't all this talk of "evil", or "mistakes" or "better" or so forth and so on, rather disjointed?
I mean are you all ... when you make these various points and arguments, ... are you talking specifically and clearly from a human persepective? because many of these are really subjective - from a human being perspective, one might view the mass genocide of an entire Island as "evil" or the release of " i'm alright Jack" Melkor as a bit of a oopsy-daisy etc ... but is not the view of Eru or of the Valar an entirely different view, or standpoint, would they even consider such notions as "good" and "evil" in any recognisable framework or way as we do? In terms of our morality or thoughts, would these not be rather alien to them? Who thinks they would think of themselves that they were "above" such mortal minds and morailities as we view them from? *only has a few momments here - hopes this point hasn't already been made??* Gor: Quote:
since when was incompetence or innocence and chatting definitions of Evil??? really Gor !!! Again we come down to this central question: are we defining evil from a human perspective or from the perspectives of Valinoreans or Eru (is Eru even technically capable - at least in his mind, of being/ doing evil - as the ultimate Law????) . |
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05-13-2006, 03:47 PM | #19 | |
Elf Lord
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I just don't think we're in position to claim "the Valar were wrong", as we can't see the whole picture and they probably could.. neither you nor I can truly tell the consequences of any other action that may have been taken by the Valar. |
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05-13-2006, 10:09 PM | #20 | |||
Elven Warrior
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I know I am not a member of the Valar, but does being a Vala excuse one from all questioning of one’s actions? There is no real explanation given for why things were allowed to progress until the Numenoreans had to be exterminated. If there was a good reason, maybe the Valar would have given it. Wouldn’t it be reasonable to give some justification for such an action (or, more accurately, inaction)? Wouldn’t it be easier for Men to learn a lesson if they knew what that lesson was? Anyway, we can’t judge the results of actions that weren’t taken. Again, I agree. But why can’t we judge the results of actions that were taken? Some of the results were: many wars, hatred, suffering, etc. I don’t think the Valar allowed this purposely (but if you argue that they had full comprehension of the big picture, then you must think that they did). I recognize that in most cases things could have been worse than they actually ended up being. However, the destruction of Numenor (for one) is another matter. I don’t think the results could have been much worse than they were, but I don’t see why they couldn’t have been better (much better). Last edited by CAB : 05-13-2006 at 10:49 PM. |
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