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06-06-2005, 03:00 PM | #1 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
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Carrying things in the spirit world
Hi, All!
In the thread "Gandalf's second staff" in the movie forum, Halbarad of the Dunedain made an interesting observation, that after the fall in Moria and during imprisonment on Orthanc Gandalf retains not only his staff, but (in the movie as in the book) Gandalf retains his sword Glamdring as well. Quote:
It looks like that persons that are more-than-men (maiar, ringwraiths) can carry things while in the shadow world. Sauron, it seems, managed to retrieve the One from the Fall of Numenor, when his body perished. The ringwraiths while they were traveling through Anorien UNCLAD and invisible to eyes (UT) were not weaponless, I believe. So perhaps the spirit of Gandalf carried Glamdring and the staff in the shadow world and then made them reappear again in the real world of light? Quote:
http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q0-InvWhy How did he carry the Ring to ME after his material body perished? Tolkien replied himself: "Though reduced to 'a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind', I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring" back to Middle-earth after the drowning of NĂºmenor." [L #211 (280)] So Maiar spirits were able to carry things. I believe that were Sauron already DEAD before Isildur chopped off his finger, his spirit would have carried the Ring away. Isildur was just very lucky to act at the right moment. Gandalf was a maia, and he also carried a ring - Narya - wherever he went. After the fight with the Barlog Gandalf died. It seems that Gandalf's body perished (burned) and was reformed, rather than regenerated. At least no scars or traces of first-degree burns were visible. He has got a new body much like Sauron did after Numenor. I don't think he sought his old carcass to find Naria and Glamdring and the staff. I believe he carried all the items to Aman as a spirit and then back, and then re-formed them in the physical world. Let's take the nazgul as a visible (hmm, more like invisible ) example. I had to give the matter some thought in connection with the RPG I found myself involved in, much to my surprise. Were the unclad nazgul weaponless? If we remember the Weathertop scene (in the book, not the movie) the 3 nazgul came quite close, but nobody saw any drawn swords: "three or four tall black figures were standing there on the slope, looking down on them. So black were they that they seemed like black holes in the deep shade behind them. Frodo thought that he heard a faint hiss as of venomous breath and felt a thin piercing chill. Then the shapes slowly advanced." Then, Frodo put on the Ring and " immediately, though everything else remained as before, dim and dark, the shapes became terribly clear. He was able to see beneath their black wrappings. There were five tall figures: two standing on the lip of the dell, three advancing. In their white faces burned keen and merciless eyes; under their mantles were long grey robes; upon their grey hairs were helms of silver; in their haggard hands were swords of steel". When the others told their story, it seems they never saw any swords: "At length he gathered from Sam that they had seen nothing but the vague shadowy shapes coming towards them. Suddenly to his horror Sam found that his master had vanished; and at that moment a black shadow rushed past him, and he fell." It looks like the Ringwraiths carried swords in the spirit word, but could act with them in "the word of light" nonetheless. The hilt of morgul knife has become material after use, while the blade disappeared. I believe it was the same with Glamdring and with Gandalf's staff. Any ideas? |
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06-06-2005, 04:25 PM | #2 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,651
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Interesting. Just one point on Sauron, I think after the destruction if Numenor, he was, as Morgoth before him, only 'allowed' to have the form of a Dark Lord, but correct me if I am wrong.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
06-06-2005, 05:57 PM | #3 |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
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Yes, Sauron could not make himself a fair body anymore.
Gandalf, on the other hand, with the blessing of Manwe, made himself a new body even better than the old one |
06-09-2005, 09:51 AM | #4 |
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mirkwood
Posts: 796
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Very interesting idea, Gordis. It could account for all these double staffs and unperishable Glamdrings. Perhaps Narsil-Anduril also?
And do you others really think that not a single wizard had ever had his staff shattered, burned or whatever before? Sure they had to remake the things. And maybe there were situations when they travelled in disguise and couldn't carry staffs with them at all. So were they then powerless? I believe the staff was ever present in the spirit word as Gordis says. |
06-09-2005, 05:23 PM | #5 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
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Quote:
But I think that Narsil-Anduril did not belong to the same cathegory as wizards staffs. |
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06-09-2005, 05:39 PM | #6 |
The Intermittent One
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: here and there
Posts: 4,671
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i support the argument that maiar and other spiritual beings (bombadil, goldberry, wights, wraiths etc) would be able to carry certain objects (not a huge chest of gold par example, but a ring, staff, sword maybe) through the unseen wraith/spirit world, and from thence back to the kingdom within, from outside (which also leads me on to a possibility, is the wraith/spirit world the void? is it inside or outside of arda?)
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06-09-2005, 10:41 AM | #7 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: LI-woods, NY
Posts: 653
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Quote:
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06-09-2005, 02:03 PM | #8 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 369
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Quote:
The text is quite explicit that Sauron lost the ability to appear fair. He had the ring with him when he made a new form after Numenor. |
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06-09-2005, 01:54 PM | #9 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 369
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Quote:
And correct me if I'm wrong, but where does Gandalf again bear Glamdring in TT or RoTK? Even if he does though, Gwahir could have recovered it, assuming Gandalf had it with him in the final showdown with the Balrog. |
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06-09-2005, 04:47 PM | #10 | |
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,651
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Quote:
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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06-09-2005, 04:59 PM | #11 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 369
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