|
FAQ | Members List | Calendar |
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
|
04-01-2006, 01:11 PM | #1 |
The Buckleberry Fairy/Captain
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Washington State again (I miss Texas).
Posts: 1,345
|
Book V; ch IX and X. The Last Debate and The Black Gate Opens
Thanks for your patience, guys, I was actually in the middle of posting this last night when I lost my internet connection.
V; ix The Last Debate The Last Debate is a breath of calm before a final plunge into the last great battle in the war of the ring. The houses of Healing deals with the aftermath of the battle of Pelannor Fields, but in chapter nine the reader finally gets a chance to draw a breath. There is even quite a bit of lightheartedness, at the reunion of the remnant of the fellowship, though each is still burdened by what lies ahead. This is also Tolkien’s last chance to fill in any missing details, before bringing us to the climactic battle for the fellowship, and then plunging us into the dark and oppressive Mordor with Sam and Frodo (my least favorite part of the story, if truth be told). 1.characters and major plot points The friendship of Legolas and Gimli (the most unlikely friendship of all) is highlighted again in this chapter: “Together the Elf and the Dwarf entered Minas Tirith, and folk that saw them pass marveled to see such companions”. Tolkien notes their differences in reference both to their oddity as a pair (when I was in high school I had a friend who was 4’11”, and I was 5’10”. My mom called us the long and the short of it), and to their strengths. Gimli promises to rebuild Minas Tirith to its former strength, and Legolas sees its need for beauty, and growing things. The four friends meet again in the houses of healing, and recap their adventures for the benefit of one another, and also for those of us listening in. We’ve heard most of everything from Merry and Pippin’s points of view; now Legolas and Gimli tell of their journey through the Paths of the Dead, and the ensuing battles to the south. The chapter closes on a more somber note: our fearless leaders, the Captains of the West, are strategies for battle and for brining aid to the ring-bearer. They agree to the counsel of Gandalf and Aragorn; to make themselves bait for the dark lord, in hopes of giving Frodo a chance to make it across the wasteland to Mount Doom. “We must walk open-eyed into that trap, with courage, but small hope for ourselves. For, my lords, it may well prove that we ourselves shall perish utterly in a black battle far from the living lands; so that even if Barad-dur be thrown down, we shall not live to see a new age. But this, I deem, is our duty. And better so than to perish nonetheless—as we surely shall, if we sit here—and know as we die that no new age will be.” – Gandalf 2.Favorite scenes/quotes “Yet it is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till.” My friend, Brandon, told me the same thing last summer, when we were having a conversation about life-goals, and figuring out what God has planned for your life. He said, “Do the good that’s in front of you”, and I love it, because I’m not a one-man revolution. I’m a solitary person, and the world’s problems can be very overwhelming. But I can do whatever’s good that’s in front of me. “Up with your beard, Durin’s son!” -- Legolas Anything Gandalf and Aragorn say during the last debate. I’m a sucker for death with valour speeches. 3.questions, comments for discussion. 1. The ships of the Corsairs coming upriver with their black sails reminds me of the old story about the King of Crete, who sacrifices his daughter to the Minotaur. Anyone else remember that story? I haven’t read it since I was a kid. But it end up that she and the rest of her group are rescued, and they sail back to Crete, but when the king sees the ship with black sails on the horizon, he takes it as confirmation of his daughter’s death, and kills himself. I was never very excited about ancient mythology and history; this was just a story I remember from when I was a kid. Are there other instances where Tolkien borrows an old story and I just never noticed? 2. This may have been discussed in the previous chapters, but what are your feelings on Aragorn’s decision to remain outside of the city? To me it adds to his sort of Christ-figure status: “Foxes have holes; birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.” Ioreth’s observation that the true king has the hands of a Healer, and the fact that there have been many prophecies concerning his coming all add to that effect. Now, obviously, I know this is not an allegory, and I know that Aragorn is a man of war (lots of correlations to the young Beowulf), and Jesus came as a lamb to the slaughter. I know that similes and metaphors only go so far before they break down. I’m just sayin’… 3. This chapter is the point when I begin to admire this new character to whom we’ve recently been introduced. We don’t get much of his history here, and I know our purpose of discussion is to stick to LotR itself, but can any HoME scholars point me to where Tolkien gives us more of Imrahil? V; X The Black Gate Opens 1.Characters and major plot points. Merry is left behind in Minas Tirith; he watches the rest of the Fellowship head toward Mordor, presumably to die in battle there. Pippin marches with the soldiers of Gondor, and the two friends are once more separated. After a long march The King and his host arrive at the gates of Mordor to challenge the dark lord. The Captains treat with The Mouth of Sauron, reject his terms of “peace”, and begin the final battle. 2.Favorite scenes/quotes. “Surety you crave! Sauron gives none. If you sue for his clemency you must first do his bidding. These are his terms. Take them or leave them!” “These we will take!” said Gandalf suddenly. He cast asid his cloak and a white light shone forth like a sword in that black place…These we will take in memory of our friend,” he cried. “But as for your terms, we reject them utterly.” “But no! That came in his tale, long long ago. This is my tale, and it is ended now. Good-bye!” – Pippin 3. Questions, comments for discussion. 1. I find it interesting that they went “openly yet heedfully”. Why do you think caution figured into their plans at this point? Why, if they were so hopeless (“So time and hopeless journey wore away” page 169) for their own situation, did they not run full speed at the Black Gate, kamikaze style? 2. I’ve re-read this chapter several times, and I just noticed the term “Morannon”. Is The Morannon referring to The Black Gate, or the field/area in front of the gate? 3. Do you think that The Captains of the West believed the ring to be in Sauron’s hands after seeing Frodo’s things in the hands of the enemy? 4. I can’t help comparing Merry’s and Pippin’s experiences in battle. Any thoughts on this one? Votes as to who’s the bravest? Like Merry, Pippin was the only hobbit on the battlefield, and he marked out and killed one significant (even to men--the troll struck down Beregond just before Pippin killed it) opponent.
__________________
A day will come at last when I Shall take the hidden paths that run West of the Moon, East of the Sun. |
04-04-2006, 03:47 PM | #2 | ||||
Fëanorophobic
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Between the pages of a book
Posts: 1,417
|
Great job, crickhollow! Thank you
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
||||
04-04-2006, 04:01 PM | #3 | ||||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Good summary, crick!
Quote:
I love this quote: “We must walk open-eyed into that trap, with courage, but small hope for ourselves. For, my lords, it may well prove that we ourselves shall perish utterly in a black battle far from the living lands; so that even if Barad-dur be thrown down, we shall not live to see a new age..." To me, that shows the importance of doing what you believe to be right, even if you, personally, don't benefit or even KNOW that others will benefit. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I can't recall much on Imrahil in HoME - maybe a sentence or two. But I don't have the LoTR HoMEs - I just have the Sil ones. Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 04-04-2006 at 04:03 PM. |
||||||
04-05-2006, 08:41 PM | #4 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 306
|
Thank you for the excellent summary crickhollow.
I agree with Rian that time was an important issue as the army approached the Black Gate. They needed to hold Sauron’s attention as long as possible. Also if they are defeated and the Ring isn’t found then Sauron may begin to suspect the truth of their designs. Another reason for them to go slowly was their uncertainty regarding Frodo’s position. For all they know he could be preparing to throw the Ring into the Cracks of Doom at any point on their journey. I think this doubt means they were not completely hopeless. Regarding another of your questions, I think Gandalf at least didn’t believe that Sauron had the Ring after seeing Frodo’s (and Sam’s) things in the hands of the Mouth of Sauron. The Mouth speaks of only one Hobbit and calls him a spy, making no mention of the Ring. Gandalf plays along and also only speaks of a single prisoner. It is difficult to guess what the other captains were thinking since they don’t say anything at this time. |
04-06-2006, 12:17 AM | #5 | |||
Spaceman Spiff
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: In the belly of a Firefly, living in Serenity is where you'll find me
Posts: 1,438
|
Very well done crickhollow.
I actually just got done reading these chapters a few days ago, not for the first time of coarse. Anywho, here's my 2 pennies. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Do you hear that? |
|||
04-06-2006, 04:09 AM | #6 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
|
Quote:
Clearly, Aragorn has given thought to the situation and to his likely reception in Gondor. By camping outside, yet entering as a Ranger of the North to do his healing thing, he gains acceptance by the people before even claiming the throne. It shows a depth of insight in Aragorn which we get only occasionally. He is a man on a mission, a life-long mission. He has shown us he is bold and courageous, and now we see caution and prudence. It brings to mind the debate between Aragorn and Gandalf in TTT (is it over possibly using The Palantir?) where Gandalf senses that Aragorn is tempted to test himself against Sauron directly. Aragorn says something like "who am I to be rash, who has waited all these years?", and yet he wrests the stone from Sauron's dominion. As a result, of course, he sees the Black Fleet and takes the Paths of the Dead. Anyhow, the point is that these must be very difficult judgments to make. As readers, with a hobbit's perspective, we only get the actions and not the first-person narrative of that decision. You have to admire how JRRT gives us a glimpse of such depths in a short description of a deed. As a literary style, I think it is part of what makes these characters (Aragorn, Gandalf, etc) take on an air of heroism. I never considered it Christ-like, but then, that's probably because I'm not a Christian However, I totally agree that "do the good that's in front of you" is one of the excellent themes of LOTR. I also agree that Gandalf wasn't fooled by the mail-shirt. The Mouth gives it away by saying "whatever his mission was, it has failed". |
|
04-07-2006, 02:06 PM | #7 | ||||
Cyber Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Left of Rock, Right of Hard Place
Posts: 986
|
Quote:
Quote:
The King of Crete had the Minotaur and the maze where the Minotaur was kept. Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Sincerely, Anthony 'Many are my names in many countries,' he said. 'Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkûn to the Drarves; Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incánus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.' Faramir What nobler employment, or more valuable to the state, than that of the man who instructs the rising generation? Cicero (106BC-43BC) |
||||
04-15-2006, 01:09 PM | #8 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 301
|
I always loved the linguistic interplay between Aragorn and the Master of the Houses of Healing.
And the joking betwen Aragorn and Merry- after all that action we're due for a bit of comic relief. |
05-06-2006, 09:59 AM | #9 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
|
Nice work Crickhollow!
yes, Grey Mouser (hello by the way) ... it's a nice change of pace and scale- brings it back to some heart warming close ups as it were so that we can scale the dramatic "wides" later... Literaturely (sp?) speaking, it puts things in a context perhaps? yes the pompous "learned man" and the garrulous (sp?) old wise woman iroeth and her folksy wisdom better than learned arrogance! A favourite of mine too. Christ like? Not for me - nor i think for Tolkien - i think maybe an inner beauty or nobility or power, partly from ... (Eru) ... there seems also a parallel with the faith of faramir ..that he "knew he would come" .. etc ... As CAB mentions power, beauty and nobilty etc coming from high lineages and from birth rights etc are a massive strand in LOTR and in Tolkiens work generally. But i do not think JRR was drawing such a literal comparison to Christ - although it is an interesting question / reflection. Best, BB |
07-25-2006, 12:52 PM | #10 |
The Buckleberry Fairy/Captain
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Washington State again (I miss Texas).
Posts: 1,345
|
Long gap here in between responses
but I just wanted to respond to Butterbeer’s last comment
I didn’t mean to argue that Tolkien meant Aragorn as an allegorical Christ. Probably my definition of a Christ-figure in literature differs slightly from yours. I use the term loosely, and meant to describe any character with Christ-like qualities; I see them popping out all over the place. Usually a Christ-like character demonstrates sacrifice (like Frodo and his decision to take the ring to Mt. Doom, even though it certainly meant his death, or both Jean Val-Jean and Monseigneur Bienvenu at different points in Les Mis, to cite a non-Tolkien example), but also other characteristics. I'd still argue for Aragorn being a Christ-figure. Note the reference from the Gospel of Matthew (Mt 8:20) in my first post. And there are plenty of places in the Gospels (eg Mark 7:31-37) that show Jesus performing miracles and healing people, and then slipping off, saying, "don't tell anyone who I am." And then the people run off and tell everyone, “Hey, look, the Christ is here.” Which is pretty much what goes on in this chapter with Aragorn. And again, I’m not saying that Tolkien intends us to read Aragorn as a literal Christ-figure, but perhaps at least a literary one. You’d better believe a man of his religious beliefs and education knew all these stories, just as much as he knew the one about the King of Crete.
__________________
A day will come at last when I Shall take the hidden paths that run West of the Moon, East of the Sun. |
07-26-2006, 06:08 PM | #11 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
|
well, it's good to see real and intelligent posting here in the discussion thread crickhollow.
I have always been a big proponent of allowing intelligent discussion on the fringes as it were of the main context of any chapter, and i DO hope this interesting sideline will be allowed to flourish. It is my beleif that by doing so we honour the works of Tolkien far better than by vague praise. he (JRR) was an intelligent man and creative, and indeed to some respects, a liberal minded man, but one who had a core of central beleif that was a solid plank in a fast moving stream, but one that always held him fast no matter where that stream or widening river took him but never bound him to any dogma his mind or soul was minded to reject. Personally i think it pushes it somewhat to draw such a direct parallel (even, clarified as you are careful to make it ) between a christ-like figure and Aragorn or indeed any of Tolkien's characters. It is an interesting idea for sure, and it'd be worthy to see where it leads, provided those that enter into the debate do so from a Tolkien perspective above and beyond any firmly held beleifs ... i only say that to mean that we have the better Tolkien debate rather than denigrating this worthy project into the realms of General messages and such Tolkien had a very complex view on Christianity and the Church indeed from his upbringing ...James Joyce springs to mind vaguely here .. , and I, for one, feel, it perhaps does not tell the WHOLE story to assume the undeniable metaphors in his writings should be read so literally. This is not CSS Lewis , whom he would argue Theology till the dawn broke with. Yet ... we see in Arargorn, the healer, the self-scarificing, the foretold, if you will, many themes. For myself, i consider that this was written over many years and experiences, and that ever as a river runs so did his thoughts and ideas. Regards, BB Last edited by Butterbeer : 07-26-2006 at 06:30 PM. |
12-03-2007, 09:00 AM | #12 | ||||||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
|
Quote:
But in some versions of the tale of Isold and Tristram, the sail-incident recurs as well. And I remember seeing it in a Japanese fairy tale as well, although that may have been cross-contamination. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
We are not things. |
||||||
12-03-2007, 04:01 PM | #13 | ||
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 421
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
12-03-2007, 09:28 PM | #14 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 455
|
This will surely not make me many friends here but in my view the last person I'd compare Aragorn to would be Jesus. If Tolkien had modeled Aragorn after Jesus, instead of having him march out, sword in hand, leading an army to oppose Sauron's evil he'd have had him let Sauron march unopposed straight into Minas Tirith while blaming the Gondorian establishment for his woes.
|
12-04-2007, 02:05 AM | #15 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
|
Quote:
|
|
12-04-2007, 04:40 AM | #16 | ||
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 421
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
12-04-2007, 09:45 PM | #17 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 455
|
I have no desire to argue Christianity with you. I will only repeat that it seems to me a stretch indeed to equalize "ultimate savior, who brings victory over evil" to Aragorn. However, it's obviously a stretch you want to make so let me stop here.
|
12-05-2007, 05:52 AM | #18 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 421
|
Quote:
|
|
12-05-2007, 09:23 PM | #19 | |
The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: By the shores of cuivinien
Posts: 694
|
Quote:
Aragorn was not a jesus figure at all. But not because jesus was some meek pacifist. Matthew 21:12-13 "12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, 13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves." Jesus was to me the ultimate warrior when it was called for. Aragorn was just a hero, not a messiah.
__________________
Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; |
|
12-06-2007, 05:14 AM | #20 |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
|
additional questions
I have just re-read the thread and I think it strange that we haven't discussed Sauron's terms. For me they are most puzzling.
1. Why would Sauron decide to propose terms at all - if he hoped to crush the Gondorians like fleas? Was he so shaken by the Pelennor defeat? Why give the Gondorians time to regroup and Aragorn or Gandalf time to master the Ring? 2. Why were the terms not-too-bad - almost acceptable I would say? 3. And what would Sauron do if the West accepted the terms? 4. Did Sauron indeed plan to give Isengard to the Mouth? And what about Saruman? |