Middle-Earth is Dark Age Europe

[GreyMouser]

OK, I try and incite with this idea every now and then.

It should be obvious to everyone that Middle-Earth at the end of the Third Age is modelled on Europe circa 900 AD

The Empire has been divided into two; the Western/Northern half has fallen, leaving a desolate waste of forests and marshes where law and order have collapsed, outlaws and worse roam freely, and only a few outposts of an older civilisation remain.
Orcs, trolls= Vikings, Magyars, local marauders
Rivendell, Lorien, Shire, Bree= monasteries and scattered outposts holding onto the legacy of Rome- from a British POV, ties in with Arthur.

Gondor, the Eastern/Southern half of the Empire had expanded and reached new heights of glory, only to fall back under the assaults from the East.

Gondor= Byzantium, Mordor = Islam

PLEASE NOTE!!!!- I am not saying that Tolkien thought Muslims were Evil or Servants of the Dark Lord. Just that his preoccupation with early Medieval times led him to project a vision that very strongly tracks Europe after the Fall of Rome, where Christendom was under attack from a powerful enemy from the South/East

[littleadanel]

Originally Posted by GreyMouser

Orcs, trolls= Vikings, Magyars, local marauders

Am proud of myself.

[Sam]

Interesting point of veiw GreyMouser.
I've never really thought of it that way. But now that you mention it, it does fit together alomost perfectly. But what would symbolize the city of Rome itself?

[sun-star]

Hmm, very interesting. It wouldn't be a surprise at all if Tolkien was influenced by his knowledge of this period. In the interests of historical accuracy, however, I have to nitpick

Originally Posted by GreyMouser

It should be obvious to everyone that Middle-Earth at the end of the Third Age is modelled on Europe circa 900 AD

The Empire has been divided into two; the Western/Northern half has fallen, leaving a desolate waste of forests and marshes where law and order have collapsed, outlaws and worse roam freely, and only a few outposts of an older civilisation remain.
Orcs, trolls= Vikings, Magyars, local marauders
Rivendell, Lorien, Shire, Bree= monasteries and scattered outposts holding onto the legacy of Rome- from a British POV, ties in with Arthur.

The description you give here, especially of the British Isles, is much more applicable to the 5th century than to the 10th. The Romans left at the beginning of the 400s, and by 900, Anglo-Saxon England was a developed civilisation, not "scattered outposts holding onto the legacy of Rome". Law and order had been restored (the first Anglo-Saxon king to issue a law code was Ethelbert of Kent in the 7th century), the kings of Wessex were exerting authority over a considerable part of England (which was beginning to be called England for the first time), and literature and Christian culture were both flourishing. I know you're talking about Europe as a whole, but as far as England goes, the 10th century is the wrong period to choose.

Arthur also fits better into the earlier timescale, though fictional characters are always flexible when it comes to dates

[GreyMouser]

Originally Posted by sun-star

Hmm, very interesting. It wouldn't be a surprise at all if Tolkien was influenced by his knowledge of this period. In the interests of historical accuracy, however, I have to nitpick



The description you give here, especially of the British Isles, is much more applicable to the 5th century than to the 10th. The Romans left at the beginning of the 400s, and by 900, Anglo-Saxon England was a developed civilisation, not "scattered outposts holding onto the legacy of Rome". Law and order had been restored (the first Anglo-Saxon king to issue a law code was Ethelbert of Kent in the 7th century), the kings of Wessex were exerting authority over a considerable part of England (which was beginning to be called England for the first time), and literature and Christian culture were both flourishing. I know you're talking about Europe as a whole, but as far as England goes, the 10th century is the wrong period to choose.

Arthur also fits better into the earlier timescale, though fictional characters are always flexible when it comes to dates

Yep, you're right- was being careless with my dates- in fact 900 would probably be a bit late for the Continent too- things were settling down by then and the foundations of the High Middle Ages were being laid.

So shove it back to 500-600.

Sam- hmmm... just write Rome out of the picture and chalk it up to Tolkien's Northern bias

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by GreyMouser

Sam- hmmm... just write Rome out of the picture and chalk it up to Tolkien's Northern bias

Rome could be Fornost, perhaps?

[Gordis]

A very interesting thread!

I think Tolkien was influenced by the European history, yes by Arthurian legend, and Rome, and Byzantium, but also Tolkien himself likened Gondor and Arnor to the Upper and Lower Egypt (sorry, I can't find the exact quote).

I don't think we can expect him to retell the Middle Ages history in the right chronological order, though.
While Aragorn is somewhat like Arthur (6th century?) then the division of Arnor is influenced by the division of the Karolingean Empire (9th century?), and Numenor story by the legend of Atlantis (something BC). And the Shire is like 18-19 century England...

[GreyMouser]

Originally Posted by Gordis

A very interesting thread!

I think Tolkien was influenced by the European history, yes by Arthurian legend, and Rome, and Byzantium, but also Tolkien himself likened Gondor and Arnor to the Upper and Lower Egypt (sorry, I can't find the exact quote).

I don't think we can expect him to retell the Middle Ages history in the right chronological order, though.
While Aragorn is somewhat like Arthur (6th century?) then the division of Arnor is influenced by the division of the Karolingean Empire (9th century?), and Numenor story by the legend of Atlantis (something BC). And the Shire is like 18-19 century England...

I'm not saying it exactly tracks what happened- that would be (Horror!) allegory. And the history is certainly different- a case of convergent evolution.
More the general setting- in Arnor, a wilderness that has reclaimed former settled lands, populated with bans of marauders; Gondor, experiencing a reflorescence (that would make Numenor the stand-in for Rome; as I said the back-story is different), but then waning under pressure from the East.

As for the settled Anglo-Saxons, dare one suggest...Rohan?- (scurries quickly for shelter)

Of course modern Medievalists (is that an oxymoron?) suggest that the Dark Ages weren't so Dark, and especially that the population didn't drop so much, but that was certainly the traditional perspective.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I think Tolkien was influenced by the European history, yes by Arthurian legend, and Rome, and Byzantium, but also Tolkien himself likened Gondor and Arnor to the Upper and Lower Egypt (sorry, I can't find the exact quote).

The Numenoreans, more specifically, but by extension the Dunedain to an extent. I believe he even gave the Numenorean crown as modeled after the Egyptian syncretised edition in the Letters, but mine are sort of in a different continent, so I can't look it up...

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Rome could be Fornost, perhaps?

If you want the city that was sacked by "barbarians"... or you could take Annuminas, which was probably a grander city.

I don't think Tolkien actually modeled Middle Earth on a given time in a given part of the world. Rather, I think he borrowed all sorts of episodes from history and mythology, and re-arranged them to suit (or create) his own stories.

[Alcuin]

Not Rome, but Byzantium, which slowly depopulated following plague and war, and was situated (like Minas Tirith) on the western side of the primary trade route to the Lands Beyond. Byzantium, like Minas Tirith, was at continuous war with a cruel and unrelenting foe to the East that slaughtered all who did not submit to its religion; and Byzantium, like Minas Tirith, was not the first great capital but the second, selected after an earlier and grander capital fell into ruin and decay. (The first was Rome for Byzantium, and Osgiliath for Minas Tirith. Note that this relationship is also true for Annúminas and Fornost Erain.)

Like Byzantium, Minas Tirith made peace with the barbarian tribes to the North and used them as cavalry against the invaders. Like Byzantium, Minas Tirith’s impregnable walls that had withstood invaders for centuries were breached with magic (black powder for Byzantium, black magic for Minas Tirith; but when men used alchemy instead of chemistry, many Byzantines considered black powder a form of black magic). Like Byzantium, Minas Tirith once ruled the sea with a might navy, maintaining ports and far-flung outposts to protects its interests and its citizens, and during that period, its power and influence stretched far to the south, and its name and the rumor of its power were known in many distant lands. And finally, like Byzantium, Minas Tirith was a repository of ancient knowledge lost to the rest of the world, a shining beacon of civilization and a remembrance of thousands of years of past glory long gone, an ember flickering in the approaching darkness of the end of that civilization.

But unlike Byzantium, Minas Tirith was saved.

For the Dark Ages that Tolkien studied, and for the Middle Ages that followed, Byzantium, not Rome, was the shining citadel of Christendom. And Byzantium, like Minas Tirith, was a bit alien and old-fashioned to those from the north-west of Middle-earth – or the north-west of Europe.

[Coffeehouse]

Omg.. omg!.. OMG!!!

Vikings = Orcs!? That is so insulting lol

But anyways, although it is of course interesting to see all the similarities between Middle Earth and early Middle Ages life, from things people wear to Dark Age legends and myths to how wars were fought, there are a few interesting names in Middle Earth are surprising and not so geographically absolute as some suggest.. (and showing that Tolkien's influences could well be far more diverse than some of the European geographics suggested in here)

1. In northern Ethiopia there is a region with high mountains, barren lands and lush forests with a temperate climate and great rolling rivers. This region is also heavily Catholic. The region is called Gondor.

2. South of the capital of Norway lies the province of Westfold, and the ancient seat of government in Norway, where in the times of the Vikings local chieftains fought between large plains and thick, pinewood forests.

3. In the Mark (Land in Norwegian) of the Vinguls, or the Vingulmark reigned amongst others, the king Gandalf Alfgeirsson. This was in the Viking Ages.

5. Eastfold. Province in southern Norway, part of the territory of Vingulmark stretching all the way to the Westfold.

5. Middle Earth. Midgard, land of mortals in Norse mythology. Heavy influence on the Anglo-Saxon language from Old Norse due to the Danish and Norwegian conquest of Britain.

So there we go! And that's just my scratch-the-surface knowledge.

I think perhaps the worst assumption one could make is to directly equate Mordor or the Haradrim with Muslims as during the early Middle Ages the Muslims had their Golden Years of unprecedented philosophical, scientific and societal progress which made Europe look like a bunch of losers in comparison

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

I think perhaps the worst assumption one could make is to directly equate Mordor or the Haradrim with Muslims as during the early Middle Ages the Muslims had their Golden Years of unprecedented philosophical, scientific and societal progress which made Europe look like a bunch of losers in comparison

That is true - but what DO we know about Haradrim or Khandians? What do we know about Black Numenoreans? They may have been no worse than Middle Age Muslims in terms of culture...

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Gordis

That is true - but what DO we know about Haradrim or Khandians? What do we know about Black Numenoreans? They may have been no worse than Middle Age Muslims in terms of culture...

Yeah. Haradrim are also an interesting peoples, it's too bad their history and geography is confined to being a string of footnotes in ME history. I'm especially curious about any cities they might have and their economy and relationship with the Western areas in ME. And were all in allegiance to Sauron & Mordor?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

Yeah. Haradrim are also an interesting peoples, it's too bad their history and geography is confined to being a string of footnotes in ME history. I'm especially curious about any cities they might have and their economy and relationship with the Western areas in ME. And were all in allegiance to Sauron & Mordor?

Well... Harad had been strongly influenced by late Numenor: there were several Numenorean havens along the coast: of them Umbar was the greatest. At first, in mid-Second Age, Numenoreans came as friends and teachers, then they slowly turned into oppressors and colonizers. But by the end of the Second Age Harad was actually ruled by two Numenorean lords: Herumor and Fuinur, enemies of Elendili.
I guess the Black Numenoreans must have built a lot of fortresses in Harad, comparable to what the Elendili built in Gondor: Orthanc and Aglarond, Minas Anor, Minas Ithil and Osgiliath. At least, Harad seemed to be well defended, because for a thousand years Gondor left it in peace. Eventually Gondor grew strong and at the end of the first millennium of the Third Age Gondorians conquered first Umbar, then Harad (TA1050). Gondor held Harad in vassalage for about a thousand years, then lost it.
As for the alliance with Mordor, perhaps it was made not long before the War of the Ring, after Sauron returned to Mordor. However, Harad was firmly opposed to Gondor prior to that and often attacked the southern gondorian provinces.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Well... Harad had been strongly influenced by late Numenor: there were several Numenorean havens along the coast: of them Umbar was the greatest. At first, in mid-Second Age, Numenoreans came as friends and teachers, then they slowly turned into oppressors and colonizers. But by the end of the Second Age Harad was actually ruled by two Numenorean lords: Herumor and Fuinur, enemies of Elendili.
I guess the Black Numenoreans must have built a lot of fortresses in Harad, comparable to what the Elendili built in Gondor: Orthanc and Aglarond, Minas Anor, Minas Ithil and Osgiliath. At least, Harad seemed to be well defended, because for a thousand years Gondor left it in peace. Eventually Gondor grew strong and at the end of the first millennium of the Third Age Gondorians conquered first Umbar, then Harad (TA1050). Gondor held Harad in vassalage for about a thousand years, then lost it.
As for the alliance with Mordor, perhaps it was made not long before the War of the Ring, after Sauron returned to Mordor. However, Harad was firmly opposed to Gondor prior to that and often attacked the southern gondorian provinces.

Mhm I didn't know that. So Gondor and the Harad are long-time enemies. So what you think about the alliance with Sauron. Would you say it was the dual forces of two evil cultures (Mordor and Harad), or a enemy of my enemy relationship, or a forced alliance by Sauron onto the Harad, or a pragmatic, realpolitik strategy by the Harad where they saw a chance in taking out Gondor once and for all in the promise of living peacefully in Sauron's new world

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

In another way, though, Gordis, all Sauron's subjects were slaves in a sense. Any who rebelled or tried to forge their own independent course would certainly have been smacked down. If slavery is the opposite of freedom, then all Sauron's subjects were slaves because none of them were free.

Of course, freedom is relative, even in free societies.

[Gordis]

Weren't all Gondor subjects slaves in a sense as well? Any who rebelled were driven away to Umbar - at best.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Weren't all Gondor subjects slaves in a sense as well? Any who rebelled were driven away to Umbar - at best.

I don’t think “political dissidents” were typically subjected to escheatment, servitude, and execution in Gondor. There seems to have been an exception to this rule during the 10-year reign of Castamir the Usurper during the fifteenth century of the Third Age; but the implication is that the folk of Gondor enjoyed considerable freedom of action that people under the rule of Sauron and his allies did not. In fact, that’s exactly what I cited from LotR in post 62.

Besides, how do you think I got exiled to Núrnen?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

I don’t think “political dissidents” were typically subjected to escheatment, servitude, and execution in Gondor. There seems to have been an exception to this rule during the 10-year reign of Castamir the Usurper during the fifteenth century of the Third Age;

Yes and later Eldacar took his revenge and everyone who was discontent with the reign of the half-blood had to flee.
Also there is this shady matter of Queen Beruthiel and her cats - wasn't she persecuted on religious grounds?

In fact, that’s exactly what I cited from LotR in post 62.

Besides, how do you think I got exiled to Núrnen?

And how did you get exiled there? Must be a great place by the way!

If you mean your first quote from #62, don't forget that Gandalf referred to Sauron vengeance.

...hobbits as miserable slaves would please him far more than hobbits happy and free. There is such a thing as malice and revenge.’
‘Revenge?’ said Frodo. ‘Revenge for what? I still don’t understand what all this has to do with Bilbo and myself, and our ring.’
‘It has everything to do with it,’

Sure, after meddling with the Ring the hobbits and Bagginses in particular would get harsher treatment from Sauron than normal. Maybe indeed they would become slaves in the full sense of the word.

As to your second quote: "the great slave-worked fields of Nurnen…" I see it this way. Mordor likely had very small native population of Men. This population was self-sufficient: they were able to feed themselves, but never to ensure the extensive production of crops for the army. I believe, once he settled in Mordor, Sauron simply imported slaves from tributary lands to work the fields of Nurn - and the products were used to feed all his orcs and soldiers.