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#1 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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Torture- Never, or sometimes?
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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#2 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
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permitted by whom?
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#3 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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Governments.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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#4 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
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I'm more of a "Means shape the Ends" person than a "Ends justify the Means" person, so I would say Never.
Those who think to gain something at the expense of what they truly think is right... seem more likely to lose what they think they have. I believe it's illusional to think that by torture one can achieve a greater good.
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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#5 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
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Torture? A big fat NO.
For one, I have huge doubts whether one can be sure that a confession or info given under torture is correct. In the end people will want to tell anything to make it stop. The idea of torture to gain intel or confessions always makes me immediately think of the witch-trails. Fat lot of good that that sort of torture do. Not to mention that torture creates more resentment among your enemies and will make it harder to make peace later. It's one thing to make peace with someone who has been killing your civilians and soldiers. It is quite another to make peace with someone who has been torturing and dehumanising your people. Torture destroys more than IMO it can ever gain. IMO, torture is that barbaric and something that should squarely reside in our past. People can always tell you lies, torture is not going to change that. You only lose your humanity while practising it. And I'm not sure if any info you can gather will be worth that. Secondly, I think it is an utterly inacceptable practise if we have the nerve to call ourself civilised people. In the western world, we moved past the age of barbarianism, I may hope. And now we willfully return there? No, no, no, that will not do. A good number of countries have signed treaties against torture, if we consider ourselves human beings, I expect we hold that promise. Because 'the enemy is doing it' is no excuse. If we cannot even hold the promise not to use torture, seriously, what claim can we lay on the word "civilised"? (Apologies if my post came over a bit too strongly or aggresively, but this is a topic about which I have very strong feelings.)
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We are not things. |
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#6 |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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never
and i think Eärniel laid out all the reasons very well
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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#7 | ||||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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By the way, everyone, I'm not taking a side on this issue. My opinions are not firmly established on this matter yet, one way or the other. Although that may seem extremely immoral of me, I feel a need to work my way through some of these ethical issues. I'm simply interested in playing devil's advocate here for a while, in order the better to understand this matter through the ensuing discussion. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 11-30-2005 at 12:55 AM. |
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#8 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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By the way, Jonathon, I actually don't believe that torture does strip the victim of his or her human dignity. It definitely can, however, strip the torturer of his or her human dignity. When I read the account of Jesus' torment before the crucifixion, or when I watch Mel Gibson's "The Passion", my impression is that the torturers rather than the victim lost all human dignity.
On the other hand, I have seen other films in which a good cop unwillingly tortures a villain, because they need the information now, and an innocent life is at stake. I would like to watch those movies with some of you, to see what your reaction is. How many of you have seen . . . om . . . Tom Clancy's . . . uh . . . (looks up the title) "Patriot Games"? Or the Rupert Everet new Sherlock Holmes movie? Sure, they are just films, but the scenario they present is realistic. In one of Robert Jordan's books, the main character tortures an opponent because innocent lives are at stake. The character then has an interesting conversation with another individual, and the perspective that came out of that dialogue was, "if one enjoys the violence, it is time to stop." Might that be the case with both war and torture? These are fiction accounts I'm citing, I know, and I assure you, I don't form my judgment on a matter such as this from watching movies. However, they are interesting and can cause one to really think about these matters.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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#9 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
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Quote:
(And personally I think that narrowing this down to solely an ethical discussion, makes one lose sight of the full scope of the torture-issue.)
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We are not things. |
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#10 | |||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
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Quote:
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Jesus and Gandhi never condemned insider dealing, stem cell research or cheating at poker either. If looking to philosophy as a basis, one has to adhere to the spirit, not the letter of the law. Nice quotes, BJ. EDIt: just wanted to add an appreciation to Lief for bringing this up. It is being done, in our name, as we discuss this. Last edited by The Gaffer : 11-30-2005 at 11:28 AM. |
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#11 | ||
of the House of Bëor
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Eastwards.
Posts: 979
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*takes long deep breath to encourage herself before posting in such a serious topic, hoping she would be able to get her thoughts through*
Gaffer, basically I wanted to quote the same sentences you did... so all I can say is Word! to those quotes. And Word! for Lief bringing this up. The NO in my mind has always been obvious, but became even stronger after our history teacher took us to an exhibition called the House of Terrors, in 4th grade high school... I'd better quote from their website, about the building itself and its brief history... Quote:
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(Look here, if you want to... the exhibition's website, about the prisons.)
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I'm good in bed - I can sleep for days Last edited by littleadanel : 11-30-2005 at 12:02 PM. |
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#12 |
Entmoot Attorney-General,
Equilibrating the Scales of Justice, Administrator ♎ Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 3,891
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Torture strips a person of his/her human dignity. It must never be allowed.
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An unwritten post is a delightful universe of infinite possibilities. Set down one word, however, and it immediately becomes earthbound. Set down one sentence and it’s halfway to being just like every other bloody entry that’s ever been written. ☻ |
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#13 |
of the House of Fëanor
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 6,150
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I can't believe this is even a question anybody would ever think about debating. NO, torture is disgusting, and is NEVER, never, NEVER right, NO - MATTER - WHAT. EVER. EVER.
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Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe |
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#14 | |
An enigma in a conundrum
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 6,476
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As Lief has stated-Please follow his guidlines on this
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Read up everyone.
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
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