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08-06-2006, 06:46 AM | #1 |
Elf Lord
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Interesting.
Bezerkers most definetly did exist. and yes certain shrooms and plants were indeed used. Love where this is a wandering from when we first stepped out of Gil galad's door onto the path outside ... Dark age France, illness, fear,cannibalsim, hunger ... ...of course why the full moon? Enough light to attack by, when one could clearly not do so safely in the day? (gossip y'know) Beorn as a beserker? , an influence to a degree methinks at Very best, Alcuin - there are many other influences with better claims, no doubt (i'll leave that to you lot though ) As the ever clear voice of reason (that's Eärniel by the way )states - they did not dissipate when killed, thus, far fetched as we all agree this premise is in itself, this would appear to be stretching it a tad further to breaking point ... imagines a enormous, rubber band, being pulled and pulled by miar spirits in the shape of hyennas, laughing and pulling ... but we'll see...keep an open mind! as my dear ol' gran with the big teeth and big feet used to say ... Last edited by Butterbeer : 08-06-2006 at 06:53 AM. |
08-06-2006, 07:02 AM | #2 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Berserkers main characteristic is the going literally beserk in battle, of this I see too little in Beorn's character. He's grim, he hates orcs and wargs with a passion, and a giant bear is a formidable fighter, but he does not seem to possess the blood rage that is so typical to a berserker.
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08-06-2006, 07:05 AM | #3 |
Elf Lord
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Indeed.
How many beserkers do you know that keep bees and ..er.. enjoy gardening? (and we'll not mention the sewing.. ) |
08-07-2006, 01:11 AM | #4 | ||||||||
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No, you are quite right. Beorn is definitely not a “classic berserker.” I have misspoken. But I think Beorn is very clearly a berserker, friendly and toned-down though he may be. But unless he has the power of the mythic berserker to change his shape and become a bear, ferocious and fearless and fighting without regard to injury, I am at a loss to explain what he is. It is as you sat, “an influence to a degree,” as you say. But unless you are aware of the “many other influences with better claims,” don’t say such a thing. Give us the claims. Quote:
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08-07-2006, 04:21 AM | #5 | |
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08-04-2009, 01:00 PM | #6 | |
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Methinks there is no such thing as a "friendly" berserker. But he might have been a more miled and less violent one.
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04-05-2010, 09:21 PM | #7 |
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I just wrote a chapter on this, actually :-). Quick summary:
So, on the berserker connection... it's certainly not the only influence, but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it on the grounds that Beorn is friendly... As someone has previously pointed out, berserker translated literally to "bear-shirter." Tolkien doesn't classify Beorn as a "shape-shifter" but calls him a "skin-changer..." i.e. he literally changes skins and it could be said he puts on a bear shirt. While Beorn appears friendly to us, we do have Gandalf's warnings about his ferocity (and I seem to remember it being hinted at a few times)... And berserks tended to live “marked out as a member of a special class free from the laws which govern ordinary members of society,” (Gods and Myths of Northern Europe), which is more or less what Beorn does... A mostly unrelated side-note: Tolkien's illustration of Beorn's hall is very Norse. There's also a strong correspondence to Beowulf, whose name Tolkien translates as bee-wolf. On top of this, beorn is the Anglo-Saxon word for bear AND the Old English word for man, and Beowulf himself can be considered a bear-shirter (beskerker). Finally, we could look at Kveld-Úlfr from the Saga of Egill Skallagr*msson, who has a skin-changing ability nearly identical to Beorn's in a lot of ways (and some other parallels)... |
08-07-2006, 09:57 PM | #8 | |
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Indeed, no. If memory serves me, did he not take Thorin from the Battlefield, after he had been felled? 'The blood rage' would not seem to allow for such action.
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08-08-2006, 04:48 AM | #9 |
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With some luck I was able to find the story so quickly.
The story of Björn and Bera is part of the nordic 'Hrolf Kraki Saga'. It basically went as I said: A king's son Björn was turned into a bear by his stephmother after he turned down her avances. What I forgot was that much further in the saga, his son Bödvar doesn't take on the form of a bear himself. However, a huge bear appears when he's asleep and fights amazingly. But when he's woken the bear disappears and the fight goes ill. As mine is a Dutch book, it's no use quoting it. Therefore I've managed to track down an English translation of the myth here. Be aware that the saga is long but worth a read. Having refreshed my memory, it is true that the story of Björn and Bera only corresponds with Beorn's figure on some story points and not all. Still, the similarity in sound between Björn and Beorn, the bear shape he takes on during the day and especially the formidable bear his son 'sends' into battle, do make me believe that Tolkien used this story into the shaping of Beorn.
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08-13-2006, 12:48 PM | #10 |
Elven Warrior
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Is it in "The Monster and the Critics" that Tolkien points out that Beowulf's name is literally "bee-wolf", i.e. bear?
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08-13-2006, 05:01 PM | #11 |
Elf Lord
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to Tolkien's mind, that would make a lot of sense.
Hence the dissimination language, and Beorn and the Bees. Begs the question tho' in relation to Beorn ... how de birds and the bees? |
08-05-2006, 07:33 PM | #12 |
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[EDIT: This thread has been split off the thread Wolves, wargs and werewolves from the Middle earth-forum. - Eärniel]
Beorn is described in terms similar to a Norse berserker. Berserkers are attested in many Dark Age and early medieval documents as warriors possessed of immense strength and agility, immune to pain, fighting without regard to their lives or safety. Modern folk often attribute this condition to the use of psychoactive plants or funguses, or to dismiss it altogether as myth; Dark Age and early medieval rulers and clergy did not have that luxury: they were outlawed in Norway in the early 11th century, and later in Iceland as well. Until then, groups of berserkers banded together, howling, banging their helmets with their weapons and shields, biting their shields, to reach a bloodlust feared by friend and foe alike. berserkr is Old Norse for “bear shirt.” Berserkers sometimes took names combined with the Old Norse word for “bear” – björn – in them. I think it is Tolkien’s clear intent to paint Beorn as a classic berserker, not a lycanthrope. Last edited by Earniel : 08-08-2006 at 04:31 AM. |
08-07-2006, 05:19 AM | #13 | ||
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Last edited by Alcuin : 08-07-2006 at 05:20 AM. |
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01-16-2011, 10:52 PM | #14 |
Elven Warrior
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In high school I had a Brothers Hildebrand art calendar. They called Beorn a Beserker on that calendar. How accurate that is I can't say. I would tend to think he is gentle version of a bear-shirter. The parallels are there.
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