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01-26-2009, 12:01 AM | #1 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
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Lewis vs Tolkien vs Pullman: Death Match in the Cage!
Mods, I suppose this could just as easily fit in the Tolkien sub-forum.
Pullman on Tolkien: Quote:
Quote:
http://maryvictrix.wordpress.com/200...izing-tolkien/
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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01-26-2009, 12:36 AM | #2 |
Elf Lord
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Pullman as the referee, huh? Or are his views up to a fight?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
01-26-2009, 05:42 AM | #3 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
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Groovy quotes, GM.
I would broadly agree, I think, though only if you see the books as moral explorations. LOTR isn't, as he says, though you could argue that it's trivial to even consider it in this way. And I think he misses the way in which Sam and Frodo develop throughout the book, which is about putting morals into action. |
01-26-2009, 10:33 AM | #4 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Hm, while Pullman's trilogy was okay, I hardly think it has enough 'staying power' for it to be set as rival to Tolkien's and Lewis' work, just as I'm inclined to consider Pullman as author a lightweight too, compared to the others.
Tolkien and Lewis were also more subtle in working religious themes in their work. What I remember mostly of the Golden Compass trilogy was that the Church was the big bad. I don't quite recall noticing any other moral theme of importance. In short: IMO Tolkien and Lewis would finish Pullman off just in time for tea and crumpets.
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01-26-2009, 11:19 AM | #5 | |
The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion
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Quote:
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Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; |
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01-26-2009, 11:33 AM | #6 | ||
The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: By the shores of cuivinien
Posts: 694
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Who is this guy?
Quote:
Quote:
Sounds like an inconsequential author griping at his betters.
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Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; |
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01-26-2009, 11:37 AM | #7 |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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Yes, and Faramir who wanted to take the ring!
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01-27-2009, 09:38 AM | #8 |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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I totally agree with CH. Especially the last paragraph.
Gotta run! (Class in 20 mins!)
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01-27-2009, 11:30 PM | #9 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
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Hmmmm... was thinking more about the theological aspects of it. Tolkien claimed LoTR to be not only a Christian work, but essentially a Catholic one, a claim that, as far as I can see, is happily repeated by Catholics commentators while being studiously ignored by Protestants.
I must admit that I've never been interested enough to actually delve into the doctrinal manifestations: " "To sheep other sheep no doubt appear different," laughed Lindir. "Or to shepherds. But Mortals have not been our study. We have other business." Other than the obvious mariolatry of singing hymns to the Queen of Heaven, but I was interested to see Pullman making this point. Pullman, while famously an atheist, drew his inspiration from John Milton, the great Protestant and anti-Royalist. I would have liked to hear what instances in the Narnia books he regarded as being specifically Protestant, but unfortunately the interviewer didn't follow up and I haven't been able to find any elaboration elsewhere. Tolkien was known to have to have greatly disliked Narnia for literary reasons, but there has been some discussion of the conflict between and Lewis and him on doctrinal grounds: Quote:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...n21130448/pg_9 This essay, by a Catholic writer, discusses some of the reasons Tolkien would have found 'Letters to Malcolm' " distressing and in parts horrifying" - basically, he sees a lot of attacks on Catholicism in it- and speculates how, in retrospect anyway, Tolkien might have seen some of this in the Narnia books. The commentary Tolkien wrote was called "Ulsterior Motives" (get it?-presumably this was just a working title) - but for some unknown reason has yet to be published by the Tolkien estate, which seems to have found time to publish every other half-scribbled scrap of paper he ever wrote- stirring up trouble with the Lewisites bad for business? Also interesting that Tolkien says "as much of my work was outside his." AFAIK Lewis had nothing but enthusiastic praise for Tolkien's published works, which would only have been the Hobbit and LotR, though I've read elsewhere that he privately thought Tolkien's poetry was pretty terrible- with which I heartily agree.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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01-28-2009, 12:34 AM | #10 |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
Join Date: Jun 2003
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Perhaps later in this semester I can help out in the JRRT/LOTR/Catholicism department, since my Lit. class is focusing on his work.
We've only just started, so nothing revelatory has been revealed .
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ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide |
01-28-2009, 03:28 AM | #11 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ilha Formosa
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Aww, come on, nothing spoils a good discussion like someone who actually knows what they're talking about
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
01-29-2009, 11:31 PM | #12 |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
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Tolkien realized that the most important thing about life, regardless of the big picture, is people. Lewis was a bit more obsessed with the big picture. Not that there is anything wrong with that.
Pullman is just grumpy.
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01-29-2009, 11:52 PM | #13 |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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And the great thing is that--despite each man's big differences with eachother--I can appreciate all three's fiction. Tolkien with his resplendant history, CSL with his heart-warming allegory, and Pullman in all his grumpy glory, to use your description BJ .
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02-03-2009, 04:44 PM | #14 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
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Here's an interesting 1o minutes on Tolkien and words and their meanings with some reference to Lewis:
http://www.marshillaudio.org/resourc...AJ-49-Wood.mp3 Pullman not included per se but I think he would fill the bill as postmodernity product and facilitator.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
06-17-2010, 12:55 PM | #15 |
Princess of the Noldor (and Administrative Empress of the Lone Islands)
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Is there a button or a link anywhere to report spam posts?
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Signature picture art - Bard the Bowman - by vigshane Avatar art - Footsteps of Spring (a young Luthien) - by Henning Janssen |
06-18-2010, 05:15 AM | #16 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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There should be a little triangle, like a traffic sign, under the name of each member that will allow you to notify the mods and bring the post under their attention. Or else there's a thread in the Feedback forum where you can alert mods to spammers as well.
Spam post and spammer deleted.
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We are not things. |
06-18-2010, 09:10 PM | #17 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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You mean this topic, or just inked in general?
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
06-19-2010, 12:12 AM | #18 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
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Good one, BJ!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
06-26-2010, 02:14 AM | #19 |
Princess of the Noldor (and Administrative Empress of the Lone Islands)
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Now that the spam post has been removed, it looks like I was complaining about inked, doesn't it?
Edit: And now that we're on a new page, you need to go back to look - and to read the newest on-topic post ...
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Signature picture art - Bard the Bowman - by vigshane Avatar art - Footsteps of Spring (a young Luthien) - by Henning Janssen Last edited by Varnafindë : 06-26-2010 at 02:17 AM. |
06-30-2010, 08:15 PM | #20 |
Faithful Gardener
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Having never read Pullman, I can't really comment on his work. However, I do think comparing Tolkien and Lewis is like apples and oranges. Tolkien explicitly said that LOTR was not an allegory, while Lewis's work is clearly an allegory.
I've heard that he told a mother who was worried her son was worshiping Aslan instead of Christ that there was no difference in the two at all. Actually, based on his space trilogy, I think he sort of thought that the actual name of Christ was not important (God's name in "Old Solar" was Maleldil, but the main character came to understand the two to be one). Sort of like in English it's Jesus Christ and in Spanish it's Jesu Cristo. While there's not as much difference, the two ARE different.[/tangent] Also - what kind of book would be worth reading if, as Pullman insists about LOTR, there was no major question being asked. While there may be no allegory in LOTR (and indeed, it is difficult to extract a perfect allegory like you'll find in Lewis), Tolkien still talks about Frodo being MEANT to have the Ring, etc. There is mention of a higher power in LOTR, and in other books, that "power" is given a name as Eru or Iluvatar and the various Valar.
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