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03-27-2003, 02:30 AM | #1 |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Beren and Luthien
I'm just wondering why Luthien and Beren didn't just do what they wanted. Why didn't they just get married in spite of Thingol's wishes? Thingol imprisoned Luthien in the tree house to assure that she would not follow Beren on his quest of the Silmaril, but she escaped and did follow and rescued him from Tol-in-Gaurhoth. Why was it so important at that point after she had defied her father's wishes to achieve the quest, knowing that his intent was to accomplish Beren's death?
Btw, what were the marriage customs between Elves and Men? L and C in Morgoth's Ring states clearly the customs of the Elves.
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03-27-2003, 05:01 AM | #2 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Did not Luthien become mortal when she wed Beren?
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
03-27-2003, 05:03 AM | #3 | |||
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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I think this part from the Lay of Leithian says all about Beren's mood: Quote:
Quote:
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03-27-2003, 05:24 AM | #4 |
Elven Warrior
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Well...'Laws and Customs' tells us that the giving of the Ellesar from Galadriel to Aragorn was following the usual Eldarin wedding laws of the bridal gift frommother in law to son in law.
So I assume they follow the usual Eldarin laws of marriage, for the most part. |
03-27-2003, 07:44 AM | #5 | |
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03-27-2003, 08:27 AM | #6 | |
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04-11-2003, 06:06 AM | #7 |
The Elvish Temptress
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IMO, Beren didn't want to marry Luthien without Thingol agreeing it.
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04-11-2003, 07:56 AM | #8 | |
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04-11-2003, 02:02 PM | #9 | |
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04-11-2003, 08:03 PM | #10 |
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It's a classic theme, the disapproving father meddles and ruins life for himself and everyone else.
Why did John avoid Elizabeth as commanded by his guardian? Why did he go off to a horrible existence in the trenches? We might say they were old enough to decide for themselves, but we live in a different world. I don't think Tolkien could bear taking Elizabeth away from the place he called Kortirion. They didn't want scandal to dog their heels for their whole life together. They wanted to be accepted by their families as adults and good future parents. So he went off to fight and imagined Beren and Luthien as a story, and when he came home she nursed him back to health and copied it out neatly into a notebook for him. So Beren had to go after the Silmaril. In fact, there may have been no Silmaril until Tolkien decided not to elope with Elizabeth. There may have never been any of it without the Silmaril, just a whimsical gyu who imagined the fae still living among the oaks whose checquered past might have interfered with his university (island) future. Not that I'm saying Tolkien would EVER write allegory.
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04-11-2003, 10:53 PM | #11 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Wow. That's very insightful, Elfhelm. I never thought of that.
One question, though: I thought his wife's name was Edith, not Elizabeth?
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04-12-2003, 03:41 AM | #12 | |
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04-12-2003, 06:15 AM | #13 |
The Elvish Temptress
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Have you read the first version of Beren and Luthien in BolT?
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04-12-2003, 06:21 AM | #14 |
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Who? Me? No, I haven't read any of the HoME yet. I will, just as soon as I finish LotR, then the Hobbit & UT.
Why? What about it? |
04-12-2003, 06:25 AM | #15 |
The Elvish Temptress
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You or anybody else.
I've read it (the only part of the 12 HoME books that was translatet into german). there is also an older version about Beren and Luthien in it. There, Sauron is a Cat.
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04-12-2003, 06:42 AM | #16 |
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Sorry? A cat? Maybe you should post in the Quotes in other Languages thread. Should be interesting to see other quotes you have. *sigh.. the road of meat...*
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04-12-2003, 11:16 AM | #17 |
The Elvish Temptress
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Yes, a cat. I should check the other language thread.
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04-13-2003, 12:12 AM | #18 | |
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04-13-2003, 01:27 AM | #19 | |
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04-13-2003, 03:08 AM | #20 | |
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