Enigmas

The Dunedain · 11-15-2003, 11:50 PM

If you have any enigmas, like Tom B, post them here for discussion. Enjoy

Dúnedain · 11-16-2003, 12:25 AM

Nope, but change your name

Anadriewen · 11-16-2003, 03:37 PM

whats an enigma?

Cirdan · 11-16-2003, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Anadriewen
whats an enigma?

no one knows

Bridgette · 11-16-2003, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Anadriewen
whats an enigma?

Pronunciation: i-'nig-m&, e-
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin aenigma, from Greek ainigmat-, ainigma, from ainissesthai to speak in riddles, from ainos fable
Date: 15th century
1 : an obscure speech or writing
2 : something hard to understand or explain
3 : an inscrutable or mysterious person

Lol.... Nice Cirdan

brownjenkins · 11-17-2003, 11:34 AM

i always found saruman's ring intriging... where did it rank among the rings of power? did he place part of himself within it? did it survive his death, and is it possible for him to have returned in the future much like sauron did?

obviously 100% speculation since, as far as i know, jrrt never addressed it outside of fellowship... but i guess that's what makes it an enigma

The Gaffer · 11-17-2003, 12:23 PM

Nice suggestion for a topic. No doubt most of them have already been done to death:

- what happens to Men after they die?
- the Blue Wizards
- what became of Radagast after the Third Age?
- where ARE those pesky Entwives?
- who's been a-trepassing in me taters?

Dúnedain · 11-17-2003, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Gaffer
Nice suggestion for a topic. No doubt most of them have already been done to death:

- what happens to Men after they die?
- the Blue Wizards
- what became of Radagast after the Third Age?
- where ARE those pesky Entwives?
- who's been a-trepassing in me taters?

What about the Pukel Men, the Man in Golden Armor near the entrace of Paths of the Dead, Bill Ferny, the Prince of Dol Amroth...

The Gaffer · 11-17-2003, 01:26 PM

Weren't the Pukel men supposed to be created by Druedain in the first age sometime?

Golden Armour dude I'd always assumed was whoever of the Rohirrim went into the Paths before the time was ripe (I think the story is in the Appendix).

Amroth: wasn't the mystery there that Tolkien couldn't decide whether he was Galadriel's son or not.

Where's the mystery in Bill Ferny?

Tuor of Gondolin · 11-17-2003, 02:04 PM

Originally posted by The Gaffer
"Golden Armour dude I'd always assumed was whoever of the Rohirrim went into the Paths before the time was ripe (I think the story is in the Appendix)."
___________________________________________

Yes. Baldor, son of Brego. But I thought the real mystery was:

Quote:

He had fallen near the far wall of the cave, as now could be seen, and before him stood a stony door closed fast: his finger-bones were still clawing at the cracks. A notched and broken sword lay by him, as if he had hewn at the rock in despair.
Aragorn did not touch him, but after gazing silently for a while he rose and sighed. 'Hither shall the flowers of Simbelmyne come never unto world's end,' he murmured. 'Nine mounds and seven there are now green with grass, and through all the long years he has lain at the door he could not unlock. Whither does it lead? Why would he pass? None shall ever know!'

While the above is an enigma (or at least an unanswered question), it's tempting to make informed guesses/speculation on the door and the paths of the Dead in general. Was the door a way out? If so, how would Baldor have known it? For that matter, how could he have found one door in that long passage? Were there other doors? Why didn't Baldor retreat to the entrance rather than go on? Was there some sort of treasure, artifacts, etc. beyond the door?

Of course, this door and Baldor's fate , and leaving enigmas/unanswered questions, is also one example of JRRT's creation of an impression of depth, being a "real" world with some unanswered questions/half-glimpsed vistas.
__________________________________________
"Where's the mystery in Bill Ferny?"
__________________________________________

I'm not sure, but wasn't it unclear whether he was human, or a mix of orc/human? Or perhaps the mystery is what was his fate after the War of the Ring. After all, the impression is that Aragorn was rather magnanimous in victory, how about an amnesty for opponents?

The Gaffer · 11-17-2003, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tuor of Gondolin
Of course, this door and Baldor's fate , and leaving enigmas/unanswered questions, is also one example of JRRT's creation of an impression of depth, being a "real" world with some unanswered questions/half-glimpsed vistas.

Absolutely, and one reason why I care not whether Balrogs had wings or just really, really bad BO.

But Baldor was just a very persistent Jehovah's Witness, surely? (apologies to all Jehovah's Witnesses for bad joke)

Hey, when I was in Reykjavik I walked down a street called Baldursgata. Forgot to look what was at the end..

Didn't Bill Ferny take off into the Wild and live as an outlaw?

***Valandil*** · 11-17-2003, 03:57 PM

I've thought that Baldor could have been fooled / confused / driven over the edge - by the dead guarding the place... you know - open and close doors - blow out his torch and spin him around a bit... it may have been deliciously ironic to them that he was pounded out the last of his strength on a door that led further IN (if deluded into thinking it a way OUT), when all he needed to do was go the other way to get out.

But of course, we just don't know...

Falagar · 11-17-2003, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Gaffer
Absolutely, and one reason why I care not whether Balrogs had wings or just really, really bad BO.

But Baldor was just a very persistent Jehovah's Witness, surely? (apologies to all Jehovah's Witnesses for bad joke)

Hey, when I was in Reykjavik I walked down a street called Baldursgata. Forgot to look what was at the end..

Didn't Bill Ferny take off into the Wild and live as an outlaw?

There was a Norse god named Baldur, think it has more to do with him.

The only thing that makes me read any Balrog-wings debates (and some Bombadil-debates too) is how desperate people get when they defend their theories.

Dúnedain · 11-17-2003, 04:15 PM

Exactly, I meant the mystery as to what happened with Baldor and why he was laying there pawing at that one door.

Ferny kinda just disappears. For someone who was talking so shrewdly about and was so sinister and then to just disappear fits the bill for me...

As far as Imrahil, the Prince of Dol Amroth, I always liked him everytime I read RotK and he is a character that I just wish I knew more about. We know that he is of "high blood" and it is also said that the first Prince of Dol Amroth, who Imrahil was a direct descendant of through 21 generations, was half-elven...

***Valandil*** · 11-17-2003, 04:20 PM

There are some hints (in UT?) that when Amroth and Nimrodel fled Lorien, a handmaiden (?) of Nimrodel got lost in the White Mountains, wandered around, ended up meeting & marrying the Prince of Dol Amroth from that time (a bit more than 1000 years prior to LOTR's main story). Isn't that right?

[EDIT: I think after she had a child, she left and wandered off again - or something like that... gone without a trace!]

Attalus · 11-17-2003, 09:45 PM

Yep, the Prince's name was Imrazôr the Númenórean and her name was Mithrellas. She was a handmaiden of Nimrodel's. Her children were Galador and Gilmith.

**Nurvingiel** · 11-18-2003, 02:06 AM

Is that how the Prince of Dol Amroth (in RotK) got his elven heritage? Somewhere right before the Battle of Pelanor Fields they mention he's a little bit elven.

If that's the case, and Mithrellas was his only elven ancestor, then elven blood really persists!

Random off topic: There's a restaurant near where I live called Enigma.

Artanis · 11-18-2003, 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Is that how the Prince of Dol Amroth (in RotK) got his elven heritage? Somewhere right before the Battle of Pelanor Fields they mention he's a little bit elven.

It is Legolas who claims to recognise Imrahil's Elven heritage. Some would say the story about Imrazôr and Mithrellas was just a legend, and not true, but I would rather trust Legolas in this matter.

Elven blood does really persist. Bloodlines are of great importance. One of the higher purposes of the marriage between Aragorn and Arwen was renewal of the Elvish strain in the blood of the kings of Men.

Artanis · 11-18-2003, 04:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Gaffer
Golden Armour dude I'd always assumed was whoever of the Rohirrim went into the Paths before the time was ripe (I think the story is in the Appendix).

He was a drunk who took one beer too much:

Quote:

‘No man knows,’ said Théoden: ‘yet ancient legend, now seldom spoken, has somewhat to report. If these old tales speak true that have come down from father to son in the House of Eorl, then the Door under Dwimorberg leads to a secret way that goes beneath the mountain to some forgotten end. But none have ever ventured in to search its secrets, since Baldor, son of Brego, passed the Door and was never seen among men again. A rash vow he spoke, as he drained the horn at that feast which Brego made to hallow new-built Meduseld, and he came never to the high seat of which he was the heir.

Tuor of Gondolin · 11-18-2003, 11:19 AM

Originally posted by Artanis
"He was a drunk who took one beer too much"
______________________________________

Baldor: "Mmmmm. Beer!"

11-15-2003, 11:50 PM	#1
The Dunedain Hobbit Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 24	Enigmas If you have any enigmas, like Tom B, post them here for discussion. Enjoy

11-16-2003, 12:25 AM	#2
Dúnedain High King of Númenórë Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Númenórë <--United States of America Posts: 1,947	Nope, but change your name __________________ 'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen

11-16-2003, 03:37 PM	#3
Anadriewen Enting Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: I'm not telling Posts: 56	whats an enigma? __________________ Sorry for not posting in such a long time. Long story short i forgot my password.

11-17-2003, 04:15 PM	#14
Dúnedain High King of Númenórë Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Númenórë <--United States of America Posts: 1,947	Exactly, I meant the mystery as to what happened with Baldor and why he was laying there pawing at that one door. Ferny kinda just disappears. For someone who was talking so shrewdly about and was so sinister and then to just disappear fits the bill for me... As far as Imrahil, the Prince of Dol Amroth, I always liked him everytime I read RotK and he is a character that I just wish I knew more about. We know that he is of "high blood" and it is also said that the first Prince of Dol Amroth, who Imrahil was a direct descendant of through 21 generations, was half-elven... __________________ 'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen

11-17-2003, 04:20 PM	#15
*Valandil* High King at Annuminas Administrator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Wyoming - USA Posts: 10,752	There are some hints (in UT?) that when Amroth and Nimrodel fled Lorien, a handmaiden (?) of Nimrodel got lost in the White Mountains, wandered around, ended up meeting & marrying the Prince of Dol Amroth from that time (a bit more than 1000 years prior to LOTR's main story). Isn't that right? [EDIT: I think after she had a child, she left and wandered off again - or something like that... gone without a trace!] Last edited by Valandil : 11-17-2003 at 05:23 PM.

11-17-2003, 11:34 AM	#6
brownjenkins Advocatus Diaboli Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Reality Posts: 3,767	i always found saruman's ring intriging... where did it rank among the rings of power? did he place part of himself within it? did it survive his death, and is it possible for him to have returned in the future much like sauron did? obviously 100% speculation since, as far as i know, jrrt never addressed it outside of fellowship... but i guess that's what makes it an enigma

11-17-2003, 12:23 PM	#7
The Gaffer Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: In me taters Posts: 3,288	Nice suggestion for a topic. No doubt most of them have already been done to death: - what happens to Men after they die? - the Blue Wizards - what became of Radagast after the Third Age? - where ARE those pesky Entwives? - who's been a-trepassing in me taters?

11-17-2003, 01:26 PM	#9
The Gaffer Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: In me taters Posts: 3,288	Weren't the Pukel men supposed to be created by Druedain in the first age sometime? Golden Armour dude I'd always assumed was whoever of the Rohirrim went into the Paths before the time was ripe (I think the story is in the Appendix). Amroth: wasn't the mystery there that Tolkien couldn't decide whether he was Galadriel's son or not. Where's the mystery in Bill Ferny?

11-17-2003, 03:57 PM	#12
*Valandil* High King at Annuminas Administrator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Wyoming - USA Posts: 10,752	I've thought that Baldor could have been fooled / confused / driven over the edge - by the dead guarding the place... you know - open and close doors - blow out his torch and spin him around a bit... it may have been deliciously ironic to them that he was pounded out the last of his strength on a door that led further IN (if deluded into thinking it a way OUT), when all he needed to do was go the other way to get out. But of course, we just don't know...

11-17-2003, 09:45 PM	#16
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	Yep, the Prince's name was Imrazôr the Númenórean and her name was Mithrellas. She was a handmaiden of Nimrodel's. Her children were Galador and Gilmith. __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. Last edited by Attalus : 11-17-2003 at 09:48 PM.

11-18-2003, 11:19 AM	#20
Tuor of Gondolin Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania Posts: 1,215	Originally posted by Artanis "He was a drunk who took one beer too much" ______________________________________ Baldor: "Mmmmm. Beer!" __________________ Democrat for Kerry-Edwards! Take Back America Aure entuluva! Last edited by Tuor of Gondolin : 11-18-2003 at 05:02 PM.