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07-09-2005, 01:14 AM | #1 | |||
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
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LoTR Discussion project; Book IV Chapters 3 and 4
Chapter III: The Black Gate is Closed
Mordor, and adjacent lands, courtesy of Karen Fondstad's, "The Atlas of Tolkien's Middle-earth". The chapter opens with their trek to Mordor finally over, as the black of night turned slowly into day. The desert and the marshes had been left behind. To the west of Mordor rose Ephel Duath, and to the north lay Ered Lithui, both barren, and gloomy. The two swung north towards each other, ending in the embrace of Cirith Gorgor - the haunted pass, and entrance into Mordor. High cliffs guarded this entrance, along with the Teeth of Mordor, two towers built in the distant past by the Men of Gondor, after the fall of Sauron, "... they were built by the Men of Gondor in their pride and power, after the overthrow of Sauron and his flight, lest he should seek to return to his old realm. But the strength of Gondor failed, and men slept, and for long years the towers stood empty. Then Sauron returned. Now the watch-towers, which had fallen into decay, were repaired, and filled with arms, and garrisoned with ceaseless vigilance. ... each window was full of sleepless eyes." The entrance of the pass was barred with a rampart of stone, within which was a single gate of iron, "... and upon its battlement sentinels paced unceasingly." With day-break came the fallow sun, and a cry of trumpets, sounding from the distant reaches of Mordor, signaling the changing of the guard from night to day. An interesting on-going theme in Lord of the Rings is that Sauron very seldom seems to build, or create new buildings, but rather, seems to corrupt and defile buildings of his enemies. Do you think this is related to what Tolkien said about the Enemy not being able to create life, only pervert?A conversation followed with Sam longing for the comforts of home, and Frodo determined to enter into Mordor through this pass. Gone was the cowering and fear; Frodo now stood resolute and firm in his decision. However, Gollum proposed another way into Mordor, a secret way. Darker, and more difficult to find, and Sam's hope to ride the party of Gollum would come to no avail... at least, not yet. Frodo accepted Gollum's help, but reminded him that he was in danger... not from the danger that they all shared, but the danger made from swearing on Precious - that already the Ring was twisting him. Interestingly, in a seemingly foreshadowing manner, Frodo talked about how if in the end, Gollum decided to betray his promise to the Ring, Frodo could put on the ring and: Quote:
Do you think this was foreshadowing of Smeagol's Doom? Was his Death tied to his promises to the Ring in such a literal fashion?This speech surprised both Sam and Smeagol - it would appear that both had assumed that Frodo's kindness bestowed a certain measure of blindness, and for a while after that, the only words to come out of Gollum's mouth was, "nice master". However, out of his hysterical ramblings, Frodo was able to ascertain that there was a more hidden way into Mordor, if a traveller was to follow the road south, that followed the western wall of Mordor. Eventually, the traveller would come to a junction, with the southern route leading ever onwards to the South, and the western road leading to Osgiliath. Gollum went on to tell of the left path that led to the old fortress, and of the stories that he used to hear when he was a hobbit child, sitting by the banks of the Great River, in the willow-lands. The Great River is mentioned, otherwise known as the Anduin River. What land do you think he is referring to by "willow-lands"? Is it safe to assume from this description that Gollum comes from Stoor stock? (Since the Stoors were the last to cross the Misty Mountains into Eriador).Gollum then talked about the tales that came out of the South: Quote:
"... a stone like the Moon." Presumably the ithil-stone, one of the Palantiri. This was likely captured by Sauron in the Third Age by his Nazgul lieutenants, and used to capture the minds of Denethor and Saruman. Do you think this stone survived the fall of Barad-dur? Does the fall of the ithil tower directly mirror that of the fall of Isildur, the builder of the Tower?Gollum details how the tall tower has been conquered long ago by the Enemy, and is, "not nice now, not beautiful", a terrible place - beyond the tower lies the old road which goes ever on upwards until it reaches the dark pass at the top, then it crawls down into Gorgoroth. He also tells the Hobbits about the Silent Watchers : that the the road into Mordor is watched. However, the power of Sauron is not so great that He can constantly watch all routes into Mordor, and Gollum is careful to explain that for the present, Sauron's Eye is turned to the Greater Danger in the North, that their only hope is to trust that Sauron is not being as vigilant in the South, where He perceives the conquered realms as more impervious to enemy advance. Gollum also tells of: Quote:
Was it Gollum's promise to the Ring that prevented him from answering this question directly, or something else? It is interesting to note that even when Frodo manages to draw him out about the way being guarded, there is always something that apparently stops Gollum from being truthful - later on in this passage, he is presumably in a sulk because of being accused of being a liar, and manages to further dodge any questions of the pass being guarded.cont...
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords Last edited by BeardofPants : 07-09-2005 at 01:35 AM. |
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07-09-2005, 01:15 AM | #2 | ||
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
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Gollum, however, is adamant that he escaped, using the very rare pronoun of "I" : "I did escape, all by my poor self.", by which Frodo noted that he tended to use when he was being sincere or truthful. However, whilst Frodo thought that Gollum might have been truthful about his 'escape' from Mordor, he did not write-off the cunning of the Enemy, allowing that the Enemy might have had a hand in Gollum's departure from Mordor - "And in any case Gollum was plainly keeping a good deal back." And he would not tell them the name of the pass. The Narrator then sneaks into the story and names the pass Cirith Ungol, which translates to 'the Pass of the Spider' (from Ungoliant), renamed during the Third Age from Cirith Duath, the Pass of Shadow. And unfortunately, neither Aragorn nor Gandalf were on hand to tell them the name of the pass, and warn Frodo and Sam of its significance.
How do you think the story would have diverge if perhaps Aragorn or Gandalf had been there to warn Frodo of Gollum's deception? Or if either Frodo or Sam had been better students of Mordor's Geography?Whilst Frodo was wrangling with Gollum over whether the pass was guarded, Gandalf stood amidst the Ruin of Isengard, and his thoughts went towards Sam and Frodo, laden with hope and pity. And again, Frodo appeared to pick up on Gandalf's thoughts, as on Amon Hen - even though as far as Frodo knew, Gandalf was dead, from his fall in the Misty Mountains - sitting on the ground for a very long time, trying to recall all the words of counsel that Gandalf had ever given to him. Frodo tries to remember if Gandalf had ever ventured into Mordor, and wonders: Quote:
The story mentions that, "...How they should enter it at the last Gandalf had not said. Perhaps he could not say." Do you think that Gandalf COULD have counseled them on how to enter Mordor?As the day drew on, a deep silence drew upon the little grey hollow where they lay, so near to the borders of Mordor. This was not an easy choice for Frodo, to be made in a matter of seconds. The day dragged onwards, and the Sky was empty for a long while; and then Sam's sharp eyes saw great black shapes wheeling about in the sky - Black Riders were on the move again, and the skies were being patrolled. The feeling of dread passed, but the silence was broken, and the peril had clearly returned. And then the silence was further broken by singing and hoarse shouting, the sounds moving ever closer to their little dell. Voices, and the metallic ring of weapons could be heard, and it appeared the flight would be impossible. Gollum moved out to the lip of the hollow to scout, and reported back that Men were marching into Mordor: Quote:
It HAD to be brought up, I'm sorry... Do you think that there is any basis for Tolkien being a racist? Or that his thoughts were swayed by the typical Modernist mind-sets of the time?When Gollum had finished reporting his findings to the Hobbits, Sam asked if Gollum had seen any oliphaunts, reciting the rhyme that he had learned back in the Shire: Grey as a mouse,Sam's rendition of his poetry reading had made Frodo laugh even amidst all of the peril, and the laughter had finally pushed him to make a choice. For good or evil, the third path would be their route into Mordor. Do you think that Frodo had any other choice?
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
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07-09-2005, 01:19 AM | #3 | |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
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Chapter IV: Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
The last few hours of daylight were spent resting. It had taken most of the day for Frodo to reach a decision about their next part of the journey. A quick meal was swallowed down, with Gollum only accepting water. Gollum talked about the good water that ran down in streams to the Great River, and about how hungry he was for food. Is Gollum talking about Henneth Annûn?They finally set out at Dusk, carefully creeping over the western-most rim of the dell. The moon was now three nights from full, but it did not climb up over the towering mountains until nearly midnight, so the early night was very dark. They perceived that only a single red light burned from the Towers of the Teeth, but the red eye seemed to follow them as they fled. The party stayed well off the road, keeping it to their left, but well in sight. They only rested briefly once as the night faded, but the eye didn't leave them until they turned past the dark northern shoulder of the lower mountains, and were heading southwards. It was here that they made their second rest, with hearts strangely lightened, now that the eye had dwindled, but it was not a long rest; they were not going fast enough for Gollum. They walked on until dawn had arisen in the sky : they had walked almost eight leagues and could go no further, even if they dared. Eight leagues is equal to 24.0000482 miles (or 38.6243336 kilometres). Do you think it is feasible to cover this distance in approximately 12 hours (from Dusk to Dawn)? Given their condition? (Assuming that the eight leagues is measured from the dell to their third and final stop for the night - it is mentioned that Gollum estimated that it was thirty leagues to the cross-road, and that he hoped to make the journey in four journeys.)As the light grew, the party noticed the gradual landscape change. To their left, the Mountains still rose ominously, but on their right the land was already looking less barren. The southward road now bore away from the Mountains, and beyond, the slopes bore Trees. Heath, shrubs, and knots of pine-trees were scattered, and the air was fragrant and fresh, reminding the Hobbits of the uplands of Northfarthing far away to the West. They passed the day laying deep in the heather, with Frodo slipping in and out of a peaceful sleep. Sam, however, was too hungry to sleep, and he began to long for something, "hot out of the pot." They started out again as soon as the dusk - their second night out from the Gate of Mordor - had settled. After a little while, Gollum led them onto the Southern Road, and the journey passed more quickly, albeit more dangerously. The night was spent carefully listening for walkers, and horses either coming from behind, or ahead, but the night passed, and there was no sound to be heard of walker or rider. The road had been made a long time ago, and whilst the road in close proximity to the Morannon was newly repaired, to the south, the wild was slowly encroaching upon it. Soon all signs of the stonework of the Men of Gondor disappeared, with moss growing over the paving stones, and only a few broken pillars peering out of the bushes. The road slowly turned into a little-used country cart-road, arrowing south. In this way they finally passed into the northern-most region of Ithilien, a country of climbing woods and streams. The air became more fragrant as they marched south, and from Gollum's muttering, Frodo and Sam discerned that he was unhappy with the change in climate. The night was clear, and the moon was round (interesting, when you consider that the moon from the day before was three-days from full-moon). As day-break came upon them, they halted once again. They had passed through a long stretch of road that cleaved through a stony ridge, and now clambered up on the western bank of ridge, to look abroad. The mountains were now a lot further away to the east, and to the west, were small woods of resinous trees, fir and cedar and cypress, and of course, others that were not known in the Shire. There were wide glades, and sweet-smelling herbs and shrubs. It was Spring, and it was the first time since they'd come out of Rivendell, that the Hobbits had felt the change of climate. This was a sheltered region - the East was sheltered by the Ephel Duath, and the North was sheltered by the Emyn Muil - so Ithilien was open to the southern airs, and the moist sea winds from the south. Flowers abounded, and herbs that were beyond even Sam's ken. The travellers left the road, and went downhill to the west. Sweet odours rose about them, which the hobbits inhaled, and enjoyed, whilst Gollum retched and coughed. Why do you suppose Gollum finds the smells of Ithilien to be so distressing?Following a stream, they eventually found themselves near a small clear lake in a shallow dell - the broken remains of an ancient stone basin. Water lilies floated upon the surface of the lake. It was here that the Hobbits refreshed themselves, and washed away their cares. However, despite the seeming lovely respite, they sought a hiding place in a deep brown bed of last year's fern; this was a land that was now the territory of the Dark Lord, and everywhere the hobbits looked, they could see scars wrought on the land, both old and new. Piles of charred bones, felled trees marked with the fell Runes of Sauron, pits of refuse and waste. What modern locale do you think Ithilien is comparable to? (water lilies on the lake, "English" trees, fern, hot southern winds.)The thought of food had been dominating Sam's thoughts, and now that the despair of the Black Gate was behind them, Sam wanted to pay some thought to their food supply for the rest of their journey. By his own reckoning, he estimated that six days or more had passed since he'd last calculated that there were only perhaps another three weeks supply of lembas left. Sam's ever-present optimism pondered that, "... we might be wanting to get back. We might!", and so he enlisted the help of Gollum to secure food for "a hungry hobbit". Whilst Gollum hunted, and Frodo napped, Sam watched his master, noting that: Quote:
The notion of Platonic Love has been brought up before - do you think that a relationship such as that of Sam's and Frodo's is replicated in 'Modern Life', or is it purely a work of fiction from a bygone era? Are there other works of fiction that display comparable relationships? Do you think they do it as well as Tolkien in LOTR? How about other Tolkien works? Do you think that Gollum was going to lead the Hobbits into Shelob's Lair at this stage?cont...
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords Last edited by BeardofPants : 07-09-2005 at 01:22 AM. |
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07-09-2005, 01:20 AM | #4 | |||||||
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
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Sam, the ever hopeful optimist, still had all his cooking gear in his pack, and now set about to cook the rabbits that Gollum had returned with. Again, he sent Gollum on another task to fetch water to cook them in, not trusting to leave Frodo alone. He gathered materials to set up a fire, scouting for dried fern, and twigs, and broken wood. However, once Gollum saw what Sam was up to, he was both frightened and angry, "Fire, fire! It's dangerous, yes it is. It burns, it kills. And it will bring enemies, yes it will." Sam told Gollum that he did not think that this would be a concern, since he had been careful to not make a smokey fire, and attempted to send Gollum out for a third time to find herbs. But Gollum was not pleased by this stage, and stubbornly resisted all of Sam's threats to bath his head in boiling water:
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Are the "shire clocks" out of place for the time-period?Frodo and Sam ate the stew directly from the pots, and attempted to share it with Gollum, but he was long gone. After the meal, Sam washed the dishes in the stream nearby, and noticed with alarm that he had neglected to put the fire out, which was now smoking, and clearly visible. Sam hared back to camp and stamped out the fire; he also heard suspicious sounding bird calls, and hurried back to Frodo, sharing his alarm with his Master. There was no longer any doubt of there being other people present, as voices were now heard, speaking low and furtively. Seemingly at once, four men appeared out of the brushes from different directions, and both Frodo and Sam were forced to confront them since flight no longer seemed possible. They both pulled their swords, and waited. The men were dressed in green and brown, as if to blend in with the forests of Ithilien, and they were armed with spears, bows, and swords. The men reminded Frodo of Boromir, since they had similar speech, and bearing. If Frodo and Sam were astonished at their captors, their captors were equally astonished, and dubious about what exactly the Hobbits were - speculating, and arguing that they might have been orcs or elves. Sam tired of this, and interjected: Quote:
Seek for the Sword that was Broken In Imladris it dwells. and briefly explained that the sword referred to was the one bore by Aragorn, one of the seven companions, and that they, the Hobbits, were the Halflings the riddle spoke about. Faramir was intrigued, and wanted to know more, however, business bore him away, so he left two men to guard the hobbits, and bade them farewell. The two men that guarded them were Dunedain of the South, men from the line of the Lords of Westernesse. They introduced themselves as Mablung and Damrod, soldiers of Gondor, and Rangers of Ithilien. They explained that they were about ten leagues to the east-shore of the Anduin and that they did not normally venture so far out, but they were on an errand to engage with the Men of Harad, "Curse them!" Quote:
To what extent do you think that Fate is sparing Faramir (foreshadowing of some sort)?Their talk died down, and Sam espied many Men stealing up the slopes, always keeping to the shade of the grove. As he and Frodo dozed off, Sam wondered where Gollum was. He was startled out of sleep by the sound of horns blowing. It was now high noon, and their guards stood tense and alert. More horns were sounded, and the unmistakable sound of fighting broke near their camping place. The noise came closer and closer, and Sam, eager to see what was going on, went to join the guards. He saw the swarthier men in red running down the slope, with the men in green after them. One man came crashing through the trees nearly on top of them, felled by a green arrow. Sam wondered: Quote:
Not really a question, but it is interesting to note that Tolkien's world was not all shades of Black and White, Good and Bad, etc. I think this is also a really good example of Sam's good ol' Hobbit sense, that he can wonder about this kind of stuff. It's for reasons like this, that I REALLY like Sam's character.All these thoughts were driven from Sam's mind by a new wonder: - Quote:
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"An Oliphaunt it was! So there are Oliphaunts, and I have seen one. What a life! But no one at home will ever believe me. Well, if that's over, I'll have a bit of sleep." ~ What do you suppose happened to the Oliphaunt?The chapter closes with Mablung telling Sam that when the Captain returns, they will depart swiftly, as the enemy will be pursuing them after that day's feat. Sam responded that they could go quietly if they must, but: Quote:
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
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07-09-2005, 07:37 AM | #5 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
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Very nice job, m'lady. You set a high standard.
As per, only time for a quickie the noo: Quote:
These chapters see a transition in Frodo, which you've picked up on. He accepts his fate and takes charge of the Quest. We have previously seen his "openness" to some sort of prophesy (e.g. the dream in Bombadil's house). It is as if he understands them better now and has risen to the responsibility of destroying the Ring. |
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07-09-2005, 04:45 PM | #6 |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
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Thanks Gaffar, hope to see some more people jump in soon, and not be put off by the length!
Yes, Frodo seems to be less reliant on the others of the party, and has picked up the leadership role... although Sam is starting to take a great deal of the burden already.
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
07-09-2005, 06:49 PM | #7 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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I am much impressed by your summary, Beard of Pants! Probably it is the best summary in the whole project. Congratulations!
And thank you for including the maps. An interesting on-going theme in Lord of the Rings is that Sauron very seldom seems to build, or create new buildings, but rather, seems to corrupt and defile buildings of his enemies. Do you think this is related to what Tolkien said about the Enemy not being able to create life, only pervert? I don’t think so. Morgoth built Tangorodrim and Angband. Sauron built Barad Dur in the Second age. Sure, Sauron used Dol Guldur built by elves, but at the time he came there (1100?) he had no physical shape and very few (if any) followers. Later he rebuilt Barad Dur (his own creation initially) and built the Morannon Gate between the old towers of the Teeth. Yes, he used the Teeth Towers, Cirith Ungol fortress, Minas Ithil and Durthang. But they were already there, right at the best strategic spots. Why should he demolish them and build new fortresses? Do you think this was foreshadowing of Smeagol's Doom? Was his Death tied to his promises to the Ring in such a literal fashion? Yes, I think so. It has been discussed in 2 threads before. The Great River is mentioned, otherwise known as the Anduin River. What land do you think he is referring to by "willow-lands"? Is it safe to assume from this description that Gollum comes from Stoor stock? (Since the Stoors were the last to cross the Misty Mountains into Eriador). Yes, he was from Stoors and lived by the Gladden fields, on the West bank of Anduin. It is in UT, the “Hunt for the Ring”. "... a stone like the Moon." Presumably the ithil-stone, one of the Palantiri. This was likely captured by Sauron in the Third Age by his Nazgul lieutenants, and used to capture the minds of Denethor and Saruman. Do you think this stone survived the fall of Barad-dur? It was captured in TA 2002 by nazgul, and I believe it was kept in Minas Morgul for a thousand years. Then, when in 2951 Sauron returned to Mordor and declared himself openly, he presumably took the Stone to Barad Dur. Since then, all the troubles with the other stones begun. Saruman and Denethor became corrupted. I don’t think the stone survived the fall of Barad-Dur. Or else, it became buried under the debris. Does the fall of the ithil tower directly mirror that of the fall of Isildur, the builder of the Tower? I think the parallel is not very clear. Minas Ithil was taken twice. First in the Second Age, it was the first move of Sauron against the young Gondor. The war of Last Alliance followed and presumably (though it is mentioned nowhere) Minas Ithil was recaptured and returned to Gondor. Them, in the Third age (2002) Minas Ithil was taken by the nazgul after two-years siege. It seems nobody and nothing escaped from the city this time, as even the Palantir was taken. So the first capture of M. Ithil happened before Isildur took the Ring, the second one happened 2000 years later. To late, IMHO, for a parallel. It is interesting to note that even when Frodo manages to draw him out about the way being guarded, there is always something that apparently stops Gollum from being truthful - later on in this passage, he is presumably in a sulk because of being accused of being a liar, and manages to further dodge any questions of the pass being guarded. Well, Gollum was not going to tell Frodo about Shelob, was he? He didn’t even want to tell him the name of the pass as anyone knowing Elvish would ponder on the meaning of “Ungol” How do you think the story would have diverge if perhaps Aragorn or Gandalf had been there to warn Frodo of Gollum's deception? Or if either Frodo or Sam had been better students of Mordor's Geography? Nothing would have changed, IMO. After all, Faramir DID tell Frodo the name of the pass later on, and it didn’t stop him. The story mentions that, "...How they should enter it at the last Gandalf had not said. Perhaps he could not say." Do you think that Gandalf COULD have counseled them on how to enter Mordor? Gandalf’s ORIGINAL plan is a very interesting question. I am afraid he didn’t know himself how to enter. I suppose he counted on Gollum all along for that. It HAD to be brought up, I'm sorry... Do you think that there is any basis for Tolkien being a racist? Or that his thoughts were swayed by the typical Modernist mind-sets of the time? Describing men from the south as swarthy and black-haired in not racism. It is stating the biological fact. And “Not nice; very cruel wicked Men they look.” is just a way a little hobbit sees enemy soldiers. Later Tolkien describes Easterling and Southron valour when facing the defeat at Pelennor. Do you think that Frodo had any other choice? No, he didn’t. Is Gollum talking about Henneth Annûn? No, there were a lot of streams in Ithilien, I believe 38,6 km in 12 hours? Possible I think, but hard. Why do you suppose Gollum finds the smells of Ithilien to be so distressing? The poor guy has nearly become a wraith…his senses changed. Perhaps he started to appreciate the smell of Morgul Vale flowers already… Do you think that Gollum was going to lead the Hobbits into Shelob's Lair at this stage? Yes, ever since he spoke of the “other way” To what extent do you think that Fate is sparing Faramir (foreshadowing of some sort)? I think it is just soldier’s common belief. He was lucky so far, that’s all. Last edited by Gordis : 07-09-2005 at 06:50 PM. |
07-18-2005, 12:05 PM | #8 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
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I often wondered why they didn't just hike off into the mountains, but I guess we have to assume that they must be genuinely impassable. In which case, Aragorn and Gandalf may not have had anything better to offer. Gandalf had never been in Mordor, only in Dol Guldur, and did not have a clear plan of how to enter it. One would suppose that Aragorn's ideas were around concealment (he was minded to take Gimli and himself with Frodo through the Emyn Muil) but he would have no better idea of a path. But the really interesting thing about this interaction is how they are forced to trust Gollum. It is Gollum's betrayal that seals his fate on Mount Doom. We can see in this chapter Frodo's "maturing" into someone who is, for want of a better word, a mouthpiece of fate, able to read the implications of promises and deeds. I think Gandalf (and Galadriel, Elrond, etc) also had a strong sense that fate was on their side, and that would be why they felt able to trust their fate to Frodo. |
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07-18-2005, 12:14 PM | #9 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
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Having said that, it is there for those to read those messages who want to, and I think an argument could be made. I have more of a problem with how evil people are generally described as dark or slanty-eyed. However, I don't think the Haradrim are portrayed as being evil, just enemy soldiers. |
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07-18-2005, 02:07 PM | #10 |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
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A+ BoP
The story mentions that, "...How they should enter it at the last Gandalf had not said. Perhaps he could not say." Do you think that Gandalf COULD have counseled them on how to enter Mordor? use the eagles, of course i'd have to agree with some others here that there was a good deal of "fate" that gandalf was relying upon... you really notice that along the whole journey, even as far back as leaving the shire... gandalf seems to prefer to play the catalyst role, pushing others to make their own decisions as opposed to making decisions for them... even if he was there, he probably would have left the decision in frodo's hands i don't think he knew what was going to happen (as evidenced by some of his later reactions when he learns of frodo and sam's travels) ... but he realized the importance of letting each and every member of the fellowship make their own decisions, whether for good or ill
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07-22-2005, 01:10 PM | #11 | |||||||||
the Shrike
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
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07-22-2005, 03:35 PM | #12 | |||||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Tolkien never implied that swarthy=bad. Hobbits were rather brown-skinned (not in the movie, of course). Neither had he implied that all the white-skinned people were "good". Black Numenoreans in Sauron's service (like the Mouth) were for the most part from the house of Hador, i.e. golden-haired, blue eyed and fair-skinned. As far as I remember, Easterlings from Rhun were rather fair-skinned as well. Quote:
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07-10-2005, 05:59 PM | #13 | |
Mootis per forum
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A superb job BoP!
I'm answering now just to your first suggested question. I hope to have more time tomorrow. Quote:
Perhaps Sauron, decided to concentrate more in the domination of persons (orcs, men...) and less in the alteration of nature and its materials in order to preserve his powers. The Ring itself seems to have a very strong effect on peoples' minds, but we do not know much about its power to help in building: altering the features of different materials, etc.
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Do not be hasty. That is my motto. Now we'll have a drink and go to the Entmoot. |
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07-10-2005, 06:15 PM | #14 | |
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mirkwood
Posts: 796
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Great summary. BP! I wish I had time now...
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So the Ring has virtue for building fortresses. |
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07-26-2005, 07:21 AM | #15 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: minneapolis MN
Posts: 920
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Gandalf lives...oh and Frodo too. Haldir Lives!!! |
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10-31-2005, 10:48 AM | #16 | ||||||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
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*Catching up through older chapters* Nice and extensive intro, BoP, even if I'm a little late in mentioning it.
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Not only did he not have to face the logistic problem of actually having to build things but he could sneak into the abandoned structures quite easily and turn them on his enemies. Building whole new structures on the mountains encircling Mordor would have drawn more attention, or more easily, than simply and silently taking over existing structures, IMO. And it doesn't take quite so long either. I take it that it would have been very agonizing for the people of Gondor to see Sauron not only take over their built fortresses and towers but also turn them into weapons against them. I suppose that alone was enough reason for Sauron to do so. Quote:
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We are not things. |
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