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10-06-2004, 06:38 PM | #1 |
Elven Warrior
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Moria, Sauron, and the Balrog
I'm sure that this has been discussed frequently, but I'll throw it out anyway.
When confronting Dain the Rider from Moria says that if Dain helps Sauron by finding the "hobbit thief" that Moria will be their's forever. Is Moria Sauron's to promise? That is, was the Balrog helping Sauron out? IF not would the Balrog have vacated the premises? Or do you think Sauron was simply lieing? FB |
10-06-2004, 11:29 PM | #2 | |
Elven Warrior
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Well, Sauron was offering Moria, as you contend. Had the Dwarves wanted, say, Belegost, he would have offered them that as well. But Belegost was destroyed in the War of Wrath, so it cannot be given, and nor can Moria. The Balrog is not in Sauron's power. Sauron also offers the Dwarves back the three rings of the seven that he possesses. Sauron the Deciever, is sometimes his name. He is a liar without shame, just like his former master, and the dwarves, just like the Eldar, were not decieved again.
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10-07-2004, 06:37 AM | #3 | |
The Intermittent One
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Seriously, though, Sauron would always use the power of desire for his own ends, eg: Dwarves would have desired moria, therefore, sauron offers it, men desire power, sauron offers it to easterlings and southrons, he just doesn't actually give it. his power had been, and always would have been, the predatory nature towards anybody who has a desire for something. |
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10-07-2004, 06:41 AM | #4 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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If they DID give news (leading to the 'capture and conviction' of one said hobbit), Sauron may have given them the three rings (for which he presumably had no use... they were possibly 'geared for dwarves') and sent them on their way to Moria, and they would have joined Balin & Company (as 'permanent' inhabitants ). The rings would only fuel their desire to return to Moria and delve its riches. OR... Sauron may have given them neither rings NOR tried to make good on his promise. Sauron may have been on good terms with the Balrog... they must have known each other a couple ages before. And I suspect Orcs could have traveled and brought news from one place to another... so that word of Balin's arrival there - and his eventual destruction - would have reached Sauron.
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10-07-2004, 06:49 AM | #5 |
The Intermittent One
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Some interesting concepts, Val, I believe that it could have been a mixture of things (covering myself from all angles )
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10-07-2004, 10:20 AM | #6 | |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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I'm with those that way that Sauron was just lied. Dain said, at the Council of Elrond,
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10-07-2004, 12:18 PM | #7 |
The Insufferable
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Given that Orcs from Mordor, Moria, and Isengard were working together to capture the Ring, I don't think it's impossible that Sauron could have been allies with the Balrog.
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10-07-2004, 01:47 PM | #8 | |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
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10-07-2004, 03:28 PM | #9 | |
Elven Warrior
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But I'm not with those that say Sauron just lied. I think that's too easy. Sauron after all went through a lot of trouble to regather the Dwarvish rings...is he lieing about giving them to Dain? If not, then how do we know he's lieing about Moria? If so, why go through the trouble of getting them back if not to try and bribe the dwarves? So I think just saying that Sauron just lied is just too easy. Deceit by the way, doesn't mean to just lie. It means to decieve, a process that works best if there is some truth mixed in. Which is why I think Val's suggestion may have a good deal of merit---he'd give them Moria all right...lots of little dwarf bones in the main hall forever! MWWAAAHHHHAAAAAAHHHAAAA FB |
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10-07-2004, 04:12 PM | #10 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Maybe he would try again to enslave the Dain as he did to the Nazgûl.
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10-07-2004, 06:22 PM | #11 | |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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10-08-2004, 12:58 PM | #12 | |
Elven Warrior
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Sauron is a liar, and he has lied before. The betrayal of Barahir by Gorlim springs to mind. Thats the reason the dwarves are unwilling to listen to him, because they know that Sauron wont give them Moria and the dwarvish rings he has. And as you say, he went to a lot of trouble to get the rings off the dwarves in the first place. So why then would he turn around and give them back? He'll offer anything to get the One Ring, and when he gets that, what power in middle-earth is there that will make him keep his word? Thats the reason the rings of power exist in the first place. Sauron didn't help in their making out of the goodness of his own heart, after all.
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