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01-13-2010, 10:58 AM | #1 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Book of Job
I just read a book entitled "The Book of Job as a Greek Tragedy," which was, as you might guess, an argument that the Book of Job was essentially a Greek tragedy, in the Euripidean tragedy of heterodox content sandwiched between an orthodox prologue and epilogue. Two interesting essays on "the Joban philosophy of life," the intersecting of Hebrew and Hellenistic thought, and, of course, a reconstruction of the proposed original form. Really interesting stuff, and a lot of good points; although I think there are a couple of major flaws in the argument, I think there is a lot of truth to it.
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01-13-2010, 12:41 PM | #2 | |
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Unless maybe the Greeks later copied the Joban form?
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01-15-2010, 07:07 PM | #3 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle Last edited by Gwaimir Windgem : 01-15-2010 at 07:12 PM. |
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01-15-2010, 07:45 PM | #4 |
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Indeed- I'd like to read it.
So does the author think the Elihu verses were an interpolation to defend Hebrew beliefs against Greek tragic influences? And, tying into Valandil's choice of the NIV, I assume he goes with the "I have no hope" translation of 13:15 rather than the "yet will I trust in him."
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01-15-2010, 08:02 PM | #5 |
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Just looked it up in Google- written in 1918! (available online)
I assumed it was some just-released radical new theory. Goes to show what they say about "assume" is true.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
01-16-2010, 03:30 AM | #6 | |
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He mostly uses an existing translation, though which one I don't recall. Whichever one it is, they opted for "I have no hope." I knew it was old, but I didn't realize THAT old! The copy I read was from 1959. In all honesty, I have no idea what scholars are saying these days. But since I was interested in Job as one of the more challenging books of the Bible, and since I was interested in Greek tragedy, when I saw the title I knew what I was going to be reading over the break.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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01-16-2010, 03:59 PM | #7 | |
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But my NIV clearly says 'yet will I trust in him' in 13:15 - so if I stick with my translation - I'd say no. Sounds like somewhat of a difference though - what version have you seen the first in? Perhaps the variances are in different manuscripts?? Though sometimes translating particular words from one language to another can point a translator into two potentially widely different directions, as I understand it. Such is the nature of language and translation.
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01-16-2010, 09:51 PM | #8 |
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Valandil,
You needn't be a Hebrew scholar right off the bat! But, should you be interested, here is an excellent resource for checking out stuff like this. It is the Blue Letter Bible. Here's the reference under question: http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible...&v=1&t=KJV#top Note that the resource will give it to you in 13 translations including Hebrew, Septuaguint, the Vulgate and a variety of English translations - which are interesting for comparative purposes and which vary in the specific translation under question. You also have access to the specific Hebrew and Greek words employed, lexicons, dictionaries and commentaries. Enjoy!
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01-16-2010, 10:19 PM | #9 | |
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Personally, I think "I have no hope" makes more sense with the following "But/Nevertheless I will argue my case with him." The "but" implies a certain discontinuity between the two thoughts, and I think "I have no hope" is more dissonant with "I will argue my case" than is "I will hope in him." It also seems more in character with Job's speeches in general.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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01-15-2010, 05:40 AM | #10 | |
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Quote:
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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01-18-2010, 10:12 AM | #11 |
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Nothing shocking, most biblical myths are downright plagiarised from even older mythologies.
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01-18-2010, 12:59 PM | #12 |
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I was taught by a Catholic theology professor that many biblical myths were converted from older traditions to make the transition easier for pagan converts. One thing I find problematic is when people attempt to view the old testament as being literal when, in many cases, it's probably (in fact mostly) meant to be allegorical.
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01-18-2010, 07:11 PM | #13 |
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But different theologians and scholars come to different conclusions on those things - which is why some of us see things differently, I suppose.
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01-18-2010, 08:12 PM | #14 | |||
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As regards religious cross-pollination, it is hardly peculiar to the Bible. Pretty much whenever you had different religions in close proximity, concepts, practices, or gods from one tended to drift to another. Thus, for instance, Egyptian gods like Thoth and Isis were worshipped in Greece, the famed Greek God Adonis was actually Semitic and based on the Babylonian Tammuz, and of course the Romans transplanted the Greek pantheon wholesale. "Downright plagiarised" is hardly an accurate description of this process which is quite natural. Indeed, if there anything unusual in the Israelites, it is the way they resisted this cross-pollination with other religions, and tended to take strong stances against the importation of foreign deities. Quote:
But the Bible, or at least the Old Testament, was constructed by Hebrews and Jews, and their religion at the time was thought of more in terms of genealogical connection with founding figures; consequently, they were not, by any means, a conversion-oriented religion. You were (and, indeed, still are) born a Jew, and conversion was pretty rare, though not unheard of. Conversion was not a big enough issue for them to go out of their ways to accommodate it. Quote:
That said, the question is raised of what "history" was back then, and it certainly wasn't the same thing as it is now. Histories were ideologically driven. The ideology behind Kings, for instance, is to show how Israel repeatedly failed to keep the covenant. Thus, many kings, even ones with long reigns and who were very significant leaders are dismissed with a repetition of "And Omri did evil in the land, and worshipped false gods, and went to rest with his fathers" (or something like that ). There simply was no concept of history as objective, verifiable, or "scientific" back then. Which is a very long way of saying: there isn't a strong divide in antiquity between historical and non-historical. Certainly, though, both historical elements and non-historical elements are more prevalent in Scripture than many people think.
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01-22-2010, 03:54 AM | #15 |
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Speaking of tragedy, just finished A D Nuttal's "Why Does Tragedy Give Pleasure?"
Very good, very short!
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
01-22-2010, 01:53 PM | #16 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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What's his answer?
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
01-24-2010, 01:47 AM | #17 | ||
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Basically he leans toward Aristotle's catharsis for the audience, with heavy emphasis on the purgative sense of the word, flavoured with our post-Romantic view that the emotions are good:
Quote:
In the section on Freud he (approvingly) quotes a couple of good smackdowns from C.S. Lewis. My favorite section was on Nietszche and the modern proponents of the "Dionysian" theory of Greek tragedy as sacred performance. After laying out their ideas he comes out with the pointed comment that Aristotle, who after all went to the plays, didn't seem to regard them as particularly religious. As well, he (gently) mocks the assumption of those swept up by the Dark Side of the Apollo/Dionysus split that, "while anyone can see Gibbon's Romans are lightly-disguised 18th-century gentlemen, and Tennyson's Medievals are Victorian bourgeoisie, Nietszche's Greeks are real Greeks." That brought blushes to my cheeks with 35-year-old memories of my own nietszchean infatuation. Very good style too- he can deal with all the intricacies of modern Theory without being swept up in it. I'd like to read some of his other stuff. From the (London) Times obit: Quote:
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 01-24-2010 at 02:00 AM. |
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01-25-2010, 02:15 AM | #18 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Sounds intriguing...I'll have to give a look. I'm especially eager to see the Lear connection.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
02-20-2010, 06:39 PM | #19 | |
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02-21-2010, 06:02 PM | #20 |
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CBG, you err. The word you are using was not invented until 1615. See here:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/plagiarism
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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