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03-27-2008, 10:00 PM | #1 |
Elven Warrior
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Who or what was Huan?
I posted this a moment ago in another thread:
>> I really dig Huan. One of a kind, he was. I'm still not sure if he was literally a hound or something more (maia). I guess he had to have been to have spoke as he did. Perhaps he was originally literally a hound but then Orome gave him something extra as a special gift. Then I thought I'd do a quick word search, via the Search function, for threads with Huan in the title to learn more about him. Surprisingly, I got no hits. So I thought I'd start a new thread to ask if anyone has any additional thoughts you'd like share about this remarkable creature. |
03-28-2008, 02:28 AM | #2 |
The Ñoldóran
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I've always just thought he was a pretty amazing dog - but just a dog. Other than his ability to speak (only three times), he really never does anything 'un-dog' like. And if he were a Maia, surely he wouldn't have felt obliged to follow Celegorm, who was only an elf?
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03-28-2008, 05:24 AM | #3 |
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If he's a maia, I always thought he must have been a very low-level of maia. But would Oromë be able to give maiar away in the first place? It sounds just darn disrespectful.
An enhanced dog, then, bit like a fairy dog from the fairy tales, would seem more appropriate to me.
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03-28-2008, 05:27 AM | #4 | |
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Quote:
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
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03-28-2008, 06:00 AM | #5 |
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It always remains possible that Celegorm over-stepped his bounds. Oromë might have given him Huan as a companion, not a servant. Just because Huan listened up to a point, might have given Celegorm the idea that he was Huan's master instead of companion. Huan certainly possessed enough personality and sense to break with Celegorm when the latter misbehaved rather badly, which to me indicated his task was companionship, not servitude.
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03-28-2008, 08:21 AM | #6 | |||||
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Well, it would certainly be within Celegorm's character to do such a thing, I agree with you there. But I just don't see anything in the texts to support it. Here's what I find:
The Silmarillion: Quote:
Book of Lost Tales II: Quote:
Lays of Beleriand Quote:
HoME IV Quote:
Laws and Customs among the Eldar: Quote:
That's all I could find in the texts. When he's referred to, it's usually as a "hound." That leads me to conclude that while Huan was a pretty awesome dog, he was just a pretty awesome dog.
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
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03-28-2008, 12:59 PM | #7 |
Elven Warrior
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Either way, your research is impeccable and, for me at least, settles the question. Thanks!
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03-30-2008, 01:17 PM | #8 |
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Ah, time for me to swallow my Noldor pride and admit that I missed something...
A friend of mine (who is an incredible Tolkien scholar) and I discussed this, and he told me that it was possible that Tolkien was reconsidering Huan in Myths Transformed and that he could possibly have been a Maiar... So it is possible, I suppose! I certainly bow to his knowledge in this matter.
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
03-30-2008, 02:30 PM | #9 |
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Well, Tolkien did change his mind occasionally, and didn't alway amend his writings to the new theory. So it is possible that Huan started out as an enhanced dog, as the quotes you've given seem to indicate. And that later Tolkien reconsidered and decided on a Maia. In the History of Middle-earth series I've always found it very interesting to see how Tolkien's ideas grew, but it is not easy finding his last thought on some matters.
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03-30-2008, 10:15 PM | #10 |
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03-30-2008, 10:25 PM | #11 |
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Or that Huan is Hnau, rearranged. (See Out of the Silent Planet by CS Lewis.)
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03-30-2008, 04:01 PM | #12 | |
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Quote:
As for Huan, it's always suited my sensibilites best to see him as a rather enhanced dog, as he was until a suggestion was made that he might not be in Myths Transformed. So I'll probably stick with that belief, since Tolkien never really completed his thought on anything further.
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03-31-2008, 05:22 PM | #13 |
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So he's Martian?
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03-31-2008, 05:34 PM | #14 |
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totally OT, but I can't see Roberts' name without laughing! I LOVE that movie!!!
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04-02-2008, 04:48 PM | #15 | ||
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From HoME X, the Professor allows for the possibility of Huan being a Maia:
Quote:
Quote:
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04-02-2008, 04:54 PM | #16 | |
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Then later in the same essay it becomes clear that Tolkien isn't quite sure:
Quote:
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04-02-2008, 04:57 PM | #17 | |
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Quote:
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
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04-02-2008, 05:27 PM | #18 |
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I think since this is one of those things Tolkien wasn't sure about, we're free to draw our own conclusions without fear of reprisals from the Tolcendili.
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04-02-2008, 05:38 PM | #19 |
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Yes, me too.
And I don't personally think Huan was a Maia...
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04-02-2008, 06:11 PM | #20 |
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Haun was a maia...
Tolkien introduced a strict "system" of living creatures:
* Incarnates or the "Children of Ilúvatar": Elves, Men, Dwarves and Orcs, — those who possessed fëar or souls, with the defining characteristic of being able to speak;[39] * Self-incarnates or the Valar and Maiar — "angelic" spirits that "arrayed" themselves in bodily forms of the Incarnates or of animals,[35][40] able to communicate both by thought and speech;[39] * animals, without the soul and unable to speak. (wikipedia) I knew I remember reading this in the silmarillion but was too lazy to look it up and post it but I then found it wikipedia. Haun was one of those lesser spirits that came to ME with the valar, which would make him a maia. Obviously if he was speaking he was not just some animal, the ultimate dog maybe but not just a dog. He was intelligent and when he spoke it showed he was observing the whole time what was happening all around him, because the 3 times he did spoke showed great wisdom as his advise was very important to beren and luthien; even upon his death when he spoke you knew those were not words of some dumb animal. I think he was just in nature and intent meant to be a symbol of the ultimate dog in every way, thus speaking would not fit that mold as ordinary dogs did not speak, doesn't mean he could not: he was dutiful and served his purpose. Thorondor is the same though he spoke all the time, he was most definately a maia spirit. "They arrayed themselves in the bodies of incarnates/children of illuvatar or animals," that's plain right there. Remember even the valar chose forms that suited their mood, pertaining to the part of the "music" they listened to most. Thorondor's spirit was just that, thorondor and Haun became Haun. Was Gandalf not a maia or was he just a man: think.
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