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07-13-2003, 12:27 PM | #1 |
Elven Warrior
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Independance Day:- A Black Day for Brits?
I'm a U.K. subject but have found it hard to gauge the attitude of Brits toward Independance Day. Certainly there were no mass celebrations or any visible sign of happiness but do we feel a sense of loss or do we let take the attitude its long in the past and we should not feel anything? Or should we join in the celebrations for people who fought and blew up our ancestors?
I also saw a statement somewhere, can't remember exactly where, saying that slavery was abolished in the British Empire 30 years before it was in the U.S? That true?
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07-13-2003, 01:30 PM | #2 |
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Slavery was made illegal in France and England (not sure which other countries also) before the U.S., that is sadly true.
I have never really thought that any other country should celebrate our independence. I'm not sure what you mean by their attitude toward it. In the US, we don't celebrate that our ancestors (or actually, not mine b/c I'm first born generation American) were oppressed, deprived of liberties, imprisoned, etc, before and during the war, nor do we celebrate that they died terrible deaths to make this country free. We celebrate their sacrifice for a free nation. But hey! We'd love for you to join in the celebration. Next year, pull up a lawn chair, grab a plate of bar-b-q and a beer and watch the fireworks with us. |
07-13-2003, 01:41 PM | #3 |
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
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It's like asking how the Swedes should react towards Norwegians when we're celebrating our national day. Of course, we managed it without violence
(Just kidding )
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07-13-2003, 01:44 PM | #4 | |
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07-13-2003, 02:57 PM | #5 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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We tried without violence. At first Independence was NOT the goal.
As for what we celebrate on the 4th of July it is a celebation of us DECARING Independence - through the Declaration of Independence. This is when we declared we were free and independent countries. In all actuality between the time of the Declaration of Independence and the ratification of the Constitution - the states were independent countries in a treaty. We all had our own currency, we had our own armies, we had basically our own treaties with countries, we controlled our own commerce. This is stated clearly in Article III of the Articles of Confederation Quote:
As for whether England should celebrate it or how they should feel about it. I don't think you should celebrate it. Maybe be happy that today we are allies - after a century of you trying to destroy us repeatedly - but it's not an English holiday - anymore than we would celebrate Guy Fawkes Day. You'll have to determine how you should feel. But the whole reason we sought independence was because you had an idiotic king. King George III was tearing up our charters, blockading our ports, restricting our imports to only British goods, illegal searching ships and houses, taxing us without any representation, etc, etc, etc. All our grievances are listed in the Declaration of Independence. If the grievances had been addressed when they were brought to his attention initially by Benjamin Franklin - who at first was against independence - there would not have been a Declaration of Independence. I am now glad that there was. As I said - contrary to popular belief - we do not celebrate the Revolutionary War or the victory on the 4th of July. We celebrate our Declaration of Independence. Victory came many many years later. If we were truly to celebrate the start of the true United States - it would be in September and the celebration of the Constitution. We celebrate independence though - everything came after - the war, victory, the forming of the new government, etc. If you are interested in the beginnings of the US - here are some references... Decision in Philadelphia: The Constitutional Convention of 1787 Miracle At Philadelphia: the Story of the Constitutional Convention May-Spt 1787 The Birth of the Republic, 1763-89 (The Chicago History of American Civilization) (haven't read) Founding Fathers (2000) Founding Brothers Here is a selection of 18th Century American Documents.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 07-13-2003 at 03:11 PM. |
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07-13-2003, 03:01 PM | #6 |
The Elvish Temptress
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I think for non-americans there is no need to celebrate their Independence Day, but we should accept that they have it, because certainly it is important to them and their liberty and independence.
Nothing against Brits, but I would say that some more colonies and states should become independent, because nowadays there is IMO no need for these strange relationships anymore.
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07-13-2003, 03:06 PM | #7 | ||
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. Last edited by Falagar : 07-13-2003 at 03:16 PM. |
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07-13-2003, 03:18 PM | #8 | |
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It is amazing what the Founding Fathers were able to accomplish. It is amazing that the United States did not fail.. A lot of the credit has to go to our first President George Washington. Any other person - would most likely have declared himself ruler after the war (like Lee) or not stepped down from the presidency. We beat the greatest power on earth at the time and gained our independence and built the greatest power on earth and we're only 217 years old now.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 07-13-2003 at 03:21 PM. |
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07-13-2003, 03:54 PM | #9 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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...."a tip of the hat to the jerseydevil"....and a most sincere thank you for presenting our case.
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07-13-2003, 04:08 PM | #10 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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07-13-2003, 04:33 PM | #11 | |
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You mention you were interested in England until you visited it. Why did your interest in English History etc cease then? You didn't like England? As to George III being an idiotic King, no one doubts that that. But I cannot help but feel sorry for the old, insane king. He desperately tried to cling onto the vast colony that was the U.S., which he had inherited, and its loss drove him over the brink into insanity. George, in my opinion, was never a 'tyrant' or an 'evil' man. Merely tragic in that he felt such a sense of loss at losing the U.S. 'Fresh virgin soil...endless fields...ours...mine...gone...all gone' was his famous quote. Incidentally, though a tad off topic, jerseydevil, the Great American Patriot (!) what is your opinion on the 'Special Relationship'? Is our Prime Minister 'sucking up' or are they genuinely friends?
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Take up the White Man's burden-- The savage wars of peace-- Fill full the mouth of Famine, And bid the sickness cease; And when your goal is nearest (The end for others sought) Watch sloth and heathen folly Bring all your hope to nought. |
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07-13-2003, 04:48 PM | #12 | |
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I'll give you an example. I just got back from a week away from home for business. I meet this man who lives and works here in the US but is a Brittish citizen. I tell him the state that I'm from and he proceeds to tell me lame, rude jokes about people from the state I live in. *rolleyes* And he proceeds to rudely tell me all the things he hates about the US and how England is soooo much better in everything, and how idiotic our government is. So, I said, if it's so bad here, why not just go back to England then? And he had no comment. (What a loser.) |
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07-13-2003, 04:50 PM | #13 | |
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Take up the White Man's burden-- The savage wars of peace-- Fill full the mouth of Famine, And bid the sickness cease; And when your goal is nearest (The end for others sought) Watch sloth and heathen folly Bring all your hope to nought. |
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07-13-2003, 04:58 PM | #14 | |
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And you are right about individuals not representing a population. If you would be so kind as to send over here better representatives of your country, I'd be most obliged. Thank you. |
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07-13-2003, 05:03 PM | #15 | |
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Take up the White Man's burden-- The savage wars of peace-- Fill full the mouth of Famine, And bid the sickness cease; And when your goal is nearest (The end for others sought) Watch sloth and heathen folly Bring all your hope to nought. |
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07-13-2003, 05:08 PM | #16 | |
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07-13-2003, 05:10 PM | #17 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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07-13-2003, 05:29 PM | #18 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Now onto the rest of your post.
Quote:
Quote:
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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07-13-2003, 05:47 PM | #19 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Also - I agree with Ruinel on the "subject" vs "citizen" thing. Subject sounds like serfs - one step above slaves. Citizens have an ownership in the country. The president is NOT above the common people. That is why we had the impeachment hearing on Clinton. He had been elected and taken an oath to uphold the Constitution - he was telling people to lie under oath. If people read the Constitution they will find that under Article II Section IV it says... Quote:
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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07-13-2003, 06:23 PM | #20 |
im quite stupid
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Want to know what me and George washington have in common. His mom and i hail from the same town. That is Whitehaven in cumbria my birthplace and his mother i do believe (not sure if she was born there but she lived there for a long time)! That probably the most inbtresting peice of local history ive ever heard anyone that intrested in slavery should look up whitehaven it used to be the second biggest port after london till then dirty scousers pointed out that they were not a tidal port
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