Elves Wimp Out?

[Balin, Lord of Moria]

I've always been a bit peeved at the elves in LoTR, as, just as Sauron is marshalling his forces to crush all of Middle Earth, the elves are gradually bailing out on Middle Earth and taking the ships west. It just seems like they could have stepped up and stuck around a little while longer and played a larger role in standing up to Sauron. I'm not saying they didn't help in certain ways and they didn't have reasons to be leaving Middle Eart, but it seems they could have done a lot more and as a whole been more engaged in the whole situation. Thoughts?

[Galin]

Keep in mind that the Elves fought in the War of the Ring, and like King Brand, aided by the Dwarves of Erebor, the Elves of Lórien and Mirkwood also defended their Realms against the enemy.

The whole assault was not focused on Gondor, as Legolas notes to Gimli in The Passing of the Grey Company, concerning both their kinsfolk: 'They have no need to ride to war; war already marches on their own lands.'

[Olmer]

Maybe the thread "Were the Elves allies to Gondor" will be helpful.

http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?t=11469

[Balin, Lord of Moria]

Originally Posted by Galin

Keep in mind that the Elves fought in the War of the Ring, and like King Brand, aided by the Dwarves of Erebor, the Elves of Lórien and Mirkwood also defended their Realms against the enemy.

The whole assault was not focused on Gondor, as Legolas notes to Gimli in The Passing of the Grey Company, concerning both their kinsfolk: 'They have no need to ride to war; war already marches on their own lands.'

I think the Lorien and Mirkwood Elves have some claim to protecting their own lands, as you note, so their ability to send aid is at least somewhat limited. But then there are Rivendell and Grey Havens Elves, and possibly others, where their home locations weren't under much threat. Certainly by themselves they couldn't have stood against Mordor, but a contingent of Elves, led by Elrond, Glorfindel, and Cirdan, for example, could have been of immense help in Rohan and/or Gondor.

Of all the peoples of ME, the Elves seem to most aware of the growing threat of Sauron over time (Elrond, Galadriel, etc.), and thus would seem to have some lead time and be quite interested in marshalling efforts, including at least some of their own forces, to help battle against the forces of Mordor.

For Rivendell, it makes no military sense to hold back your forces, watch your strongest potential military allies be defeated (if Rohan and Gondor had lost militarily), and then think that your forces alone would have a chance of holding off Mordor. Much better to throw in your lot with other enemies of your enemy. Or did they think they could all scoot to the Grey Havens and be out of ME by the time Gondor and Rohan would be overrun and thus not have to worry or care about facing Mordor or what happened to ME after they were gone?


Particularly given their much longer history of battling against Sauron, going all the way back to Beleriand and the key role he played in the defeat and downfall of so many Elvish kingdoms. To me the War of the Ring was very much a fight that was of Elvish interest and responsibility, or should have been.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Balin, Lord of Moria

I think the Lorien and Mirkwood Elves have some claim to protecting their own lands, as you note, so their ability to send aid is at least somewhat limited. But then there are Rivendell and Grey Havens Elves, and possibly others, where their home locations weren't under much threat. Certainly by themselves they couldn't have stood against Mordor, but a contingent of Elves, led by Elrond, Glorfindel, and Cirdan, for example, could have been of immense help in Rohan and/or Gondor.

'Immense help' is not a given I think, and Boromir, son of the Steward, does not seem to think this way. He does not ask for, or expect, an armed contingent from Rivendell. 'But I do not seek allies in war. The might of Elrond is in wisdom not in weapons, it is said.'

'It is said' arguably because it was true enough. Elrond summed up: 'Never again shall there be any such league of Elves and Men; for Men multiply and the Firstborn decrease, and the two kindreds are estranged.' And although Elrond's sons went south, and were certain to find war there, was it wholly certain that Rivendell would not be attacked?

Gandalf stated: 'How would he begin? would he try first to re-occupy Mordor, or would he first attack the chief strongholds of his enemies? I thought then, and I am sure now, that to attack Lorien and Rivendell, as soon as he was strong enough, was his original plan. It would have been a much better plan for him, and much worse for us.' The Quest of Erebor Unfinished Tales

Of course Bilbo's adventures had mitigated the situation at the time; but still, there were Orcs in the Misty Mountains and Trolls in Eriador to the north of Rivendell -- or that is, was it truly known there were not enough baddies gathering 'somewhere', or waiting in secret to raid Imladris, especially if an Elvish force was noted leaving at some point? Elrond arguably had been in discussion with Gandalf concerning Sauron's 'original plan', and unless he was absolutely certain that his Realm was no longer under any threat, he might be taking a chance sending out more than his sons.

To me the War of the Ring was very much a fight that was of Elvish interest and responsibility, or should have been.

The Third Age was described as the fading years of the Eldar, and they had been leaving Middle-earth, or were being slain, for thousands of years before the events of Frodo's day. From their perspective a Dark Lord was arising 'yet again', nor would Sauron's fall mean that evil itself was purged forever from Middle-earth. Yet Middle-earth was not for them to inherit. At the end of the First Age even, concerning the Noldor:

'We learn that the Exiled Elves were, if not commanded, at least sternly counselled to return into the West, and there be at peace.' JRRT, letter 131

In the Second Age we have the War of the Elves and Sauron, the Last Alliance, and in this Age many, many Elves die. Others sail. The existence of Elves becomes almost legendary to some in the Third Age -- small hidden realms of lingering Elves, some of the Eldar staying because the Rings give them a bit of a semblance of the West.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I've often wondered about this, specifically in regards to Glorfindel? Didn't he return to Middle Earth for the specific purpose of opposing Sauron and other remnant forces of Morgoth? Other than loaning his horse to Frodo and chasing some Nazgul into a river, what did this guy do?

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

I've often wondered about this, specifically in regards to Glorfindel? Didn't he return to Middle Earth for the specific purpose of opposing Sauron and other remnant forces of Morgoth? Other than loaning his horse to Frodo and chasing some Nazgul into a river, what did this guy do?

He was more active earlier in the Third Age, while the kingdom of Arnor still lasted, and fought against the Witchking of Angmar - he said the words about him not going to fall by the hand of a man.

It is also possible that he returned some time during the Second Age, in time to join the Last Alliance, perhaps even early enough to have joined the fight against Sauron when the truth about his ringmaking was revealed.

[Galin]

Seemingly at some point between the texts Glorfindel I and Glorfindel II -- the latter being the conception that Glorfindel was sent back for the purpose of strengthening Gil-galad and Elrond -- Tolkien noted: '... when Sauron invaded Eriador, to assist Elrond, and that though not (yet) mentioned in the annals recording Sauron's defeat he played a notable and heroic part in the War.'

In Glorfindel I, the Elven hero was said to have been sent as a companion to Gandalf, in the Third Age. I rather like this simpler idea, although according to CJRT Tolkien appears to have revised this for Glorfindel II, which 'undoubtedly followed the first at no long interval'

Ah well. In any case it looks like Tolkien intended to add to Glorfindel's history, due to his decision in 1972 that the 'two' were the same being.

[Draken]

I agree with the general tone of the replies above. The great majority of the Noldorin and Sindarin elves in Middle Earth were dead or had gone West. While there were some high profile survivors (eg Galadriel), what was left was essentially "wood elves" with a smattering of Sindarin and the odd Noldorin.

The wood elves never fielded strong "regular" armies - I believe their one attempt to do so in the War of the Jewels led to a bloodbath due to their lack of armour. They could offer defence of their lands, because woodland suited their "hit and run" style of guerilla warfare, but they couldn't stand and slug it out with a legion of Uruks and have any realistic chance of winning.

[Olmer]

but they couldn't stand and slug it out with a legion of Uruks and have any realistic chance of winning.

So, you think that they will fare better, if Gondor would be overthrown, and legions of Uruks would march on the land, which used to be a barrier, protecting theirs untroubled existence?
It is not the question whether they had enough of people to send the help, because one can’t compare ridiculous “wars” they had with the battles on Pelennore and Cormallen fields, crucial for a peaceful existence of the whole ME . Cirdan and Elrond had not have a dire need to defend themselves at that time, but, instead of gathering any help (say, by sending Gildor's merry men ) to enforce Gondor's army, outnumbered by the enemy in many times, they are sitting and waiting. Waiting for what? To be the next after Gondor? Are they their own enemies? Are they so stupid?
It's look like... unless they have nothing to worry about Sauron's reprisal. And it only could be because of the silent agreement with Sauron: they are not meddling in his affairs, and he won't stay on their way while they are getting the hell out of ME. Then all inactivity of the Elves can be easily explained.

[EllethValatari]

Originally Posted by Balin, Lord of Moria

I've always been a bit peeved at the elves in LoTR, as, just as Sauron is marshalling his forces to crush all of Middle Earth, the elves are gradually bailing out on Middle Earth and taking the ships west. It just seems like they could have stepped up and stuck around a little while longer and played a larger role in standing up to Sauron. I'm not saying they didn't help in certain ways and they didn't have reasons to be leaving Middle Eart, but it seems they could have done a lot more and as a whole been more engaged in the whole situation. Thoughts?

You have to remember that the time of the elves was over. From the beginning of time Illuvatar had ordained that the Elves care for Middle Earth until the time of men came; when Aragorn became King. The Elves knew it was time for them to leave and therefore left Middle Earth in the hands of men.

[barrelrider110]

Originally Posted by EllethValatari

You have to remember that the time of the elves was over. From the beginning of time Illuvatar had ordained that the Elves care for Middle Earth until the time of men came; when Aragorn became King. The Elves knew it was time for them to leave and therefore left Middle Earth in the hands of men.

Exactly. Elrond: 'for men multiply and the firstborn decrease and the two kindreds are estranged.'

It is the destiny of Elves to leave for Valinor. They were called by Iluvitar, and they all have the urge to sail west; Legolas refers to that several times. The 'estrangement' no doubt refers to the breaking of the covenant of Numenor, when men attempted to sail to the undying lands. So the Elves for the most part felt no obligation to help the men of Middle Earth. Men allowed Sauron to regain power; the Ringwraiths were men who craved power. So, the prevailing thought was, let the men deal with the situation. Those Elves who helped the cause not only did so to rid Middle Earth of evil and vanquish their ancient foe. They also had their own agendas. Elves of the house of Elrond, some of their kin were men; Galadriel, had a debt to repay for her First-age rebellion, and Legolas also had a debt to repay: his people allowed Gollum to escape.

[Attalus]

Elrond admitted at the Council that he had not the strength to fight Sauron. We know nothing of how many Elves he had under his command, but seemingly they could all fit into the Chamber of Fire. They sent out scouts after the fall of the Nine, but that couldn't have involved more than a hundred Elves or so. If Elrond had the military might, don't you think he would have blocked the Ford against the Nine instead of relying on Magic?

[Balin, Lord of Moria]

Originally Posted by Attalus

Elrond admitted at the Council that he had not the strength to fight Sauron. We know nothing of how many Elves he had under his command, but seemingly they could all fit into the Chamber of Fire. They sent out scouts after the fall of the Nine, but that couldn't have involved more than a hundred Elves or so. If Elrond had the military might, don't you think he would have blocked the Ford against the Nine instead of relying on Magic?

But, straight up, no other kingdom in Middle Earth had the strength to fight Sauron either. Saying Rivendell couldn't fight Sauron by itself is a very different thing than saying that Rivendell couldn't have helped play a part in defeating Sauron as part of a coalition with other elves, men, and dwarves.

As for the Ford, his magic did just fine in stopping the Nine. So I don't see how that would indicate an inability to field any sort of military force. If his magic had failed at the Ford, then that'd be a different set of circumstances.


Sure, the age of the elves was over, but as the storm clouds gathered in Middle Earth, there were still elves, including great leaders like Elrond and Galadriel, around, and they hadn't departed yet. If they had already left, then of course they wouldn't be expected to fight. But a good number were still around at the time of the war. I guess maybe even if they were physically around, to one extent or another they had mentally checked out on Middle Earth and its troubles, leaving those to be dealt with by others around them.

[Attalus]

As an earlier poster remarked, Rivendell was built as defensive position, a fortress, if you will, and a border fortress at that. Again, we know nothing of how many Elves Elrond had under his rule, but I feel it significant that he denied having an army of eElves in the armour of the Elder Days. That was ovious hyperbole, but I don't think if he had any kind of army, as opposed to a garrison, he would have said that, demeaning his own force. He mused that there might be "oneor two of his household that it might be good to send", that seems the limit of his help. Even Legolas was not one of his Household, but a messenger who, having discharged his duty, was on his way home. Galadriel and Celeborn obviously had the stronger force, but it was tied down by the forces of Sauron at Dol Guldur, much as Dain was in the North.