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06-25-2006, 05:59 AM | #1 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
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How to take a Ring from an unwilling Ring-wielder? - crazy ideas
How to take a Ring from an unwilling Ring-wielder?
This question, put by Landroval, is so interesting that it deserves a special thread, IMO. Also I have some crazy ideas on the matter that I would like to share. Quote:
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Perhaps some torment was what every prisoner received in Sauron's dungeon's just as a part of the service - like towels in a hotel?? But there may be MUCH more to it... Have you noticed, that no one apparently had his ring DRAGGED from his finger by force? I mean, Sauron had his finger cut first, Frodo as well, in Isildur's and Gollum's cases, the Ring slipped from the finger all by itself; in Deagol's case, he was most probably killed when NOT wearing the Ring; in cases of the ring transfers from one person to another their owners didn't actually WEAR the rings, as in Frodo-Sam's case (near Shelob's lair), or took off the rings willingly. Probably, it is just IMPOSSIBLE to drag a ring of Power off someone's finger without either cutting off the finger or killing the ring-wielder - in a special way (see below)? The other option is to torture the wielder, so he gives you his ring himself? I guess, in the case of Thrain, the last method was used, as the dwarf became mentally and physically damaged. It wouldn't have happened if only his finger was cut away. I don't think a Ring could be hidden from either Sauron, or Saruman: "invisible" in Tolkien's world means "existing in the World of Shadows", but both Maiar had access to it. And Saruman knew about Gandalf's ring (UT). Probably he just didn't want to cut his colleague's finger off, or torment him really hard - he may still have hoped that Gandalf would co-operate? And killing the maia Gandalf would make him take the Ring with him - as Sauron did when "killed" in Numenor. And if we go a little further (maybe further than it is reasonable ), could it be that ANY wielder, if killed with a Ring ON, takes the Ring with him, when he becomes a mere spirit? So, if orcs killed Gollum while he was WEARING the Ring, there would be no material "Precious" on the finger of his dead body, instead, his spirit would take the Ring with him to Mandos and beyond? (sounds crazy?) The same way with Isildur: if the Orcs had shot Isildur while he was invisible, the Ring would have gone out of the Circles of the World with his soul forever? Maybe the Ring felt this danger, that's why it slipped from Isildur's finger? And Frodo at Weathertop: note that the Nazgul approached the hobbits with NORMAL swords. They could have chopped Frodo to pieces quite easily, attacking all at once. BUT, it was only the Witch-King (who had a Morgul Blade) who attacked him, and he wounded Frodo with this weapon ONLY, not the long sword he had in his other hand. Why not chop the hobbit's head off, take the body, Ring and all, and carry away? - Perhaps because in this way, there would be NO ring on his dead body, and try to get it back from the Halls of Mandos! The Morgul Blade was the ONLY suitable weapon - it bounded the soul to the Middle Earth, making it unable to leave. Perhaps, this was also the reason why Sauron sent the Nazgul for the Ring, not some mortals. The ringbearer HAD to be killed with a MORGUL Blade, that was crucial. Thoughts? |
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06-25-2006, 09:08 AM | #2 |
Enting
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Gondolin. in travian.it server5
Posts: 91
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IMO, you can rest your case. It's quite a complete argument.
Only one small question - why should sauron torment Thrain instead of just cutting all of his fingers?
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06-25-2006, 10:07 AM | #3 | ||||
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 306
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That is a very interesting idea ...ummm...Gordroval.
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If removal of a great ring could be accomplished by taking off a finger (obviously, it could), I don’t see why these other techniques would be needed. |
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06-26-2006, 06:27 AM | #4 | ||||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
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Weathertop episode
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Note that at the Ford, the Nazgul called to him: "Come back! To Mordor we will take you" and only when he refused, they settled for having only the Ring "The Ring! Give us the Ring". I think, when the nazgul surrounded Frodo at Weathertop, they intended to capture him ALIVE. Because, really, no nazgul tried to kill him with a sword. If Frodo had no blade, he would have been carried away, kicking and screaming, all right. The Witch-King attacked Frodo with the Morgul Blade, ONLY when he saw Frodo's flaming sword from Barrow-Downs and recognized its danger. That was a big surprise for the WK, for he hasn't seen such swords for 1500 years, since TA 1409. All such swords either perished, or were kept safely in the Barrows guarded by the Wights. I think, guarding the blades was the primary task the WK assigned to them, when sending the Wights from Angmar to inhabit the Barrows, back in TA 1640 or something... A midget Frodo was, of course, half the WK's size, but his little pin of a sword was the worse threat imaginable: "No other sword..." And note that Frodo was decidedly "no Man" , which couldn't have escaped the WK's notice. The little snake was obviously deadly. There, I believe, the WK has made a big mistake: he should have paused to break the dangerous sword at a distance, with a spell, as he did later at the Ford. Instead, he bravely attacked immediately, wielding his Morgul blade, having settled for bringing Frodo back, not alive, but as a wraith. But Frodo stroke first, and stroke unexpectedly low, throwing himself on the ground and aiming for the nazgul's legs (and calling out to a certain Valie in the process). The WK almost got killed himself! So, the WK's blade, aimed at the hobbit's heart, only met his arm. Then Aragorn came with his flaming branches, and the two parties separated, all the participants considerably shaken. Note that at the Ford, when coming over to get Frodo, the WK didn't repeat the same mistake: he broke Frodo's sword first, and made him mute, preventing him to call to Elbereth, before he approached him. Quote:
Perhaps, given the erratic fight, the WK was not really sure what part of Frodo had been wounded. But the rest doesn't add up, really. It is very strange, that the nazgul permitted the hobbits and Aragorn to get lost in the wilderness again, but not followed them from Weathertop. Of course, Frodo's companions should have taken the Ring from him, when he came too close to becoming a wraith. I always wondered why they let Frodo keep the Ring, while he was hovering on the border of wraithdom. He could have suddenly disappeared, becoming a wraith, and carried the Ring to the nazgul. Last edited by Gordis : 06-26-2006 at 06:30 AM. |
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06-26-2006, 02:47 PM | #5 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 455
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Excellent analysis, Gordis.
I know this is not the response you want to hear but the actual explanation may be story-external (Tolkien wanted the Fellowship to have an early, abortive, non-decisive encounter with the Nazgul). |
06-26-2006, 04:53 PM | #6 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
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you know i never thought about that ... Saruman must see Narya ...and yet he does not lust nor desire one of the mighty three ...especially Narya?? ...
imagine ... Narya combined with his power of voice??? wow! with his own ring and will of adamant? Personally - I don't doubt for a second he'd have even hesitated to have chopped Gandalf's finger off if he wanted to! so... what then exactly did he hope to achieve by keeping him up there? |
10-03-2013, 03:43 PM | #7 |
Sapling
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 3
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L.O.L. means Laugh Out Loud.
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07-07-2006, 03:48 PM | #8 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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Quote:
That is so funny I can't even read the rest of the thread now!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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