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07-08-2005, 11:34 AM | #1 |
Fëanorophobic
Join Date: May 2004
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The choice in Middle Earth
Recently I've been thinking, the distinction between wrong and right in Middle Earth seems to me very easy: you've got a physically manifest "dark lord" who terrorizes the peoples of ME and has been historically known to make false promises; so it's very easy to tell the "bad" from the "good".
Why was it then so easy for people to be tricked by Morgoth or Sauron? What would it mean to be "wise" in ME if the average man can distinguish wrong from right? Do you think that the Tolkien characters can be classified as "black" and "white" or are there any "grey" ones you can think of? |
07-08-2005, 11:38 AM | #2 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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I don't think that any could be classified as black and white in any way, I'm sure even Sauron had a 'good' side. In this respect I think Fëanor could be classifed as a grey one. He was trying destroy Morgoth, but did terrible things in order to try and accomplish this.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
07-08-2005, 11:41 AM | #3 | |
Lady Tipple & Queen of Blessed Thistle
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True, in fact, it was made note how Sauron was in fact a good servant....an admirabe quality though completely misguided in his case.
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07-08-2005, 04:33 PM | #4 | |
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
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07-08-2005, 07:56 PM | #5 | |
The Insufferable
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Your dilemma, Beren3000, seems to be rooted in the assumptions which you start with. You seem to believe that:
If you accept those, it's easy to become confused. Because reality will never conform to your expectations - evil isn't a result of not knowing any better, it's the result of making a choice. The people of Middle Earth could be decieved by Morgoth because they desired something that he offered, and were willing to compromise to get it. It's not a matter of 'grays' versus 'black and white'. Morgoth was Evil, with a capital E - but that's not the same as lacking any good characteristics, because as Tolkien himself said that would mean becoming a non-entity. Which makes the question of 'black, white, or gray' a non-issue. Everything that exists has at least one good quality (that being existance). But nobody chose to follow Morgoth (or Sauron) because of his 'good side', or some good quality they saw in him. They chose to follow them because of their own 'bad side' and bad qualities which they possessed. Maeglin sold out to Morgoth because of his own Lust, and Envy, and Hatred. Not because of some good quality of Morgoth's. Gorlim betrayed his allies to Sauron because of his own Cowardice, and Fear, and Lonliness - not because he saw that Sauron wasn't really all that bad a guy. The Noldor of Eregion didn't cooperate with Sauron just because he seemed like a nice guy - Galadriel didn't fall for it, after all. The Noldor cooperated because they allowed their own insecurity, selfishness, and pride to overshadow their good sense. And that is why people in Middle Earth (and Our Earth) have a tendency to do Evil Things. Because even though they know better they're willing to compromise for the sake of their own desires.
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07-08-2005, 09:42 PM | #6 |
Elf Lord
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Well put, Wayfarer! Tolkien clearly manifests the brokeness of the Creation after the Fall in Arda, especially in Middle Earth. And, if you take the Elves as symbolic of Mind, Dwarves the Body, and Hobbits the Will, you find that all these components of human nature are affected and involved in the process begun by Morgoth's rebellion and the individual's choice for or against joining that process. All evil begins in the apprehension of the person, be it intellectual or physical desire, and it is brought to fruition (often a very discomfitting and not-as-imagined fruition) when the will calls it into some sort of existence, either intention or completed action.
It is interesting that Tolkien's critics in his time complained of the LACK of black and white in the LOTR. They thought it too muddled and without (!) clear moral direction. (They were of course critics and therefore insensible of any deep reading - if they indeed read LOTR before criticising it - as Tolkien himself observed in more than one place in LETTERS.) In short, Beren3000, there is a way that seemeth good unto Ainur, Elf, Dwarf, and Man, but the end thereof is death! And the persons of Middle Earth are called to do justice, to love mercy, and to walk humbly before Eru - just like the Primary Creation. Some do, some don't, and some can't be bothered!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
07-09-2005, 10:08 AM | #7 | |
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
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And Valar? Good gracious, IF I were a Dunedan, I would NEVER bow to them AFTER what they did to Numenor! Neither to Eru. Actually, the POV of Black numenoreans is much easier to accept than the POV of Gondoreans, who continued to bow West. |
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07-15-2005, 06:58 PM | #8 | |||
Fëanorophobic
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07-15-2005, 11:01 PM | #9 |
Elf Lord
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Beren3000,
The fault lies within ourselves! Whether you claim total depravity, or "very far gone from original righteousness", or some variant of nurture, DELIBERATE disobedience to the known good is a human choice. I can't recall in THE SILMARILLION exactly where, but JRRT explicitly mentions the doom of men of which they themselves and the elves they meet are aware. And given Tolkien's reflection of the aspects of man in the races in ME, the behaviours you note infect every aspect of man's being: body, mind, spirit. I don't need to cite the OT and NT passages for you. I am sure they spring to mind. Man chooses,over and again, the path of self against all others. Until by grace, the error of that way becomes plain to him, and he throws himself upon the Mercy as he knows it.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
07-16-2005, 09:25 PM | #10 |
AngAdan
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When the Valar was mostly shut up in Aman, Morgoth covinced the majority of humans in middle earth (to the east and south of the area of LoTR) that he was the supreme god and creator. Sauron continued the Morgoth worship as his lieutenent.
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Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," |
09-16-2005, 02:27 PM | #11 | |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
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09-22-2005, 09:24 PM | #12 |
Fenway Ranger, Lord of Red Sox Nation
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And it was really the Numenoreans who brought it upon themselves...
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Adventure...betrayal...heroism... Atharon: where heroes are born. My wife once said to me—when I'd been writing for ten or fifteen years—that I could always go back to being a nuclear engineer. And I said to her, 'Harriet, would you let someone who quit his job to go write fantasy anywhere near your nuclear reactor? I wouldn't!' (Robert Jordan) |
09-23-2005, 07:02 PM | #13 |
Elven Warrior
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Maybe I should start another thread on this but to me, the more difficult question is, why should the orcs and their ilk always be evil? Why do they have no choice? Why were men constantly tempted by evil but orcs never tempted by good? Why was there not one single orc to turn from Morgoth or Sauron and do good? That has always felt one-dimensional to me about Middle Earth. No, I'm not saying for a moment that Terry Brooks is on a part with J.R.R. Tolkien but in Brooks' world, even the gnomes give rise to good now and then and I find that more real.
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09-24-2005, 02:28 AM | #14 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Hey, I remember we had debates over that in the past. You might be interested to want to take a look at this thread: good orcs or this one: orcs
Searches can reveal more topics but these are the ones I remember.
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09-25-2005, 04:51 PM | #15 | |
AngAdan
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Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," |
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09-27-2005, 03:19 AM | #16 | |
Fëanorophobic
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10-05-2005, 02:49 PM | #17 |
of the House of Bëor
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*bump*
The title "Choice in ME" made me think... What I love about Tolkien is that no character is downright evil from the very beginning, "born evil", so to say. Not even Melkor himself. And another thing I noticed: what leads to choosing the wrong path is very often a desire for something you can't have. Look at Maeglin longing for Idril. (boy meets girl is the basis of every story ) And the Númenoreans not contented with long life but longing for immortality. I admit these were two very distant examples... Ooh, I used to think so much about this. Time to re-read the Sil
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10-05-2005, 05:55 PM | #18 |
Elf Lord
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littleadanel,
That's because evil is not self-existent but derivative! (And Tolkien as a good, practicing Catholic certainly knew that in his bones so it could not have escaped getting into his work.) And since evil is derivative, it follows that it has its origins in disordered desire. That is, evil must consist in taking a positive good in such a fashion as inconsistent with the nature of the desirer and/or the nature of the object desired. Hence, one can love some(one)(thing) more than Eru or one can take a created object in wrong time or degree or one can pervert the proper use of one's self or the created (one) (thing). Hence, Melkor's and Morgoth's and Maeglin's rebellions evidence those characteristics! It's not really boy wants girl or vice versa for every story, , Melkor wanted to be Eru! And those Numenoreans! They wanted it all in their way in their degree and to their liking!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 10-05-2005 at 05:57 PM. Reason: forgot mooter name |
10-06-2005, 03:29 AM | #19 | |
of the House of Bëor
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Ooh, I had to look up 'derivative' to know exactly what you mean... (not a native English speaker and sometimes I really don't want to risk misunderstanding.) So, it's "derive = 1. To obtain or receive from a source", isn't it? P.S. That "boy meets girl" was just a silly thing I've read elsewhere and popped into my mind... of course in many cases it doesn't make sense.
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