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08-08-2004, 07:38 AM | #1 | |
Mootis per forum
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The Lord of the Rings Discussion: Chapters 9 and 10
I’m sorry for the delay of this introduction. I’ve finally left it in a short summary of the two chapters and some points of discussion. Here it is:
At the Sign of the Prancing Pony and Strider After a description of Bree and the region around it, and a small introduction to its history and culture –the only region where men and hobbits live together- we see the four hobbits reaching the town after the Sun had gone to rest. There we will met Barliman Butterbur (I wonder where did Tolkien come with that name) and et to know the “multicultural” nature of Bree: travelling Dwarfs, Southerners, the regular company of local men and hobbits... and even a Ranger We soon see once again the wonderous ability of hobbits to forget pains and perils as soon as they have conveniently had supper and some mugs of ood beer. Here it is my favourite song of all LOTR: There is an Inn (there is an excellent version of this song by The Tolkien Ensemble that I think makes it justice. The authors used to let this song be free for download as a sample of their work. If any of you find a link to it, please post it for the benefit of everybody ) While we're being introduced in the mistery of Strider, he will introduce us a little further into the mistery of the Black Riders and Merry will help to this purpose too, though of course unintentionally... Chapter 10th ends in the same night in which the 9th began, expecting and inminent attack of the riders. Points for discussion: 1. Little and Big Folk. Did Tolkien want a scenary to pass definetely from the hobbits world to the large darker outside world? These chapters end in a very dark tone that will only increase in the following. Problems in the South, odd Rangers, very close Black Riders... This is not the Shire and I cannot help wondering how could hobbits live in such a world, so...Well, floor is opened again for discussion...
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Do not be hasty. That is my motto. Now we'll have a drink and go to the Entmoot. Last edited by Fat middle : 08-09-2004 at 11:07 AM. Reason: removing non working link |
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08-08-2004, 08:20 AM | #2 | ||||||
Fëanorophobic
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First, I'd like to thank you, Fat middle, for taking the time to write the intros (although I feel that chapter 10 could've used a longer intro).
Here are my thoughts: Quote:
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08-08-2004, 06:49 PM | #3 | ||||
Co-President of Entmoot
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Quote:
There are other situations where the Ring tries to reveal itself, but other forces work against its power. A prime example is when Frodo and co. first see the Black Rider. Frodo nearly put on the Ring, but (IIRC) he remembered Gandalf's warning, and Gildor and the Elves appeared at an extremely convenient time. (This is also part of the idea that Gandalf hints at - that there are other forces at work besides evil.) Anyway, the Hobbits could have avoided the whole thing if they had had supper in their room. It would have eliminated the opportunity for the Ring. I think the Ring is sentient about certain things. I think Sauron imbued it with the intelligence, malice, and instinct that would connect them. Quote:
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08-08-2004, 06:54 PM | #4 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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As the quote in my sig makes clear, the primary power of the Black Riders was fear. I have always taken the Black Breath to be a distillation and formulation of that power, making the fear so intense as to cause death.
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08-09-2004, 09:23 AM | #5 | |
Elf Lord
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Thanks for keeping the ball rolling, Fat Middle.
Quote:
It's significant that Bree is very ancient. Tolkien states that the settlement pre-dates the returning Numenorean Kings of the Second Age. To me, the suggestion is that the men of Bree are of a particularly independent and indomitable stock, and have plenty of qualities of their own to resist outside influence, the temptations of power or expansionist ambitions. The suggestion, I think is that the co-habitation with hobbits mutually reinforced these qualities. |
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08-09-2004, 10:08 AM | #6 | |
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Quote:
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Do not be hasty. That is my motto. Now we'll have a drink and go to the Entmoot. |
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08-09-2004, 10:04 AM | #7 | |
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Quote:
So the Black Breath could be sort of a heart attack due to the terrible fear that those creatures inspirated...
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Do not be hasty. That is my motto. Now we'll have a drink and go to the Entmoot. |
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08-09-2004, 10:17 AM | #8 | |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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Quote:
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08-09-2004, 12:08 PM | #9 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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Quote:
It seems to me that JRRT may have changed his mind over time about the nature of the Nazgul. I am somewhat familiar with what you're refering to... but his earlier concept (as portrayed in the book and appendices) seem to have more physical power. An in-depth discussion here would go beyond what we're trying to do with the Discussion Project threads, so I thought another thread would be a nice place to pull in other sources and discuss this point. Are you game? (I'm not QUITE asking you to step outside. In fact, I see both sides on this... just thought it could yield a nice discussion)
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08-09-2004, 12:53 PM | #10 | ||
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Quote:
Then to the discussion points: 1: Bree is definately not the Shire, and here we hear more about the problems in the big world outside. It has been hinted to before though. I think the company on their journey has gradually come to encounter the dangers and troubles of the world. The Black Riders, the warnings and hints from the Elves ... 2. I'm not sure why you think the Bree Hobbits have been corrupted. If there has been any corruption, I'm sure it has gone both ways. The Men are not that bad in Bree, the squinteyed Southerner was a stranger, which leaves us with Harry the gate-keeper and Bill Ferny as the bad Bree-guys. I agree with Beren that Bree seem to have been the only cosmopolitan place in Middle-Earth at that time. A place where Elves, Dwarves, Men, Hobbits and occationally a few wizards could mingle. At least it used to be that way - you get the impression that the traffic was more lively in former days, but now the North Road was seldom used, Hobbits from the Shire was a rare sight, and I would guess there were not so many Elves around either. Too bad. 3. Hehehe - I've always thought of Bob as a Hobbit, but your question made me wonder why. I think it is because of the likeness in name with Nob. 4. Ah, there's too many years since I read LotR first time, I don't remember what I thought of the Rangers then. But in the chapter about Aragorn there are so many subtle hints on who he is, they pass unnoticed on a first reading but are recognised later. 5. I think the Ring acted on Frodo's will only - the urge he felt to put the Ring on his finger - and it came only when he touched it in his pocket by chance. It is interesting to notice that Frodo felt "as if the suggestion came to him from outside, from someone or something in the room". I wonder if this is referring to the Ring. If it was, wouldn't Frodo feel it coming from the Ring, and not from 'outside'? But what other sources than the Ring could there be? 7. That's a good one indeed. I am personally fond of this one, from Strider: Quote:
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08-13-2004, 07:54 PM | #11 | |
Sapling
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Quote:
Don't want to wander off on a completely different tangent, but I distinctly remember the tone of Bree from when I first read LotR when I was very young. The first few chapters in the shire were barely different from The Hobbit in terms of depth and darkness, but once in Bree the book shifted completely. At this point the tale shook off the robes of a children's book that it had been wearing and dropped out of the land of fairy tale into the land of nightmare. There had been clues that Tolkien was moving in this direction earlier, most notably in Fog on the Barrow-downs; but then there had been a brightly coloured hero to save the day. I believe Tolkien realised at this point that the story had changed irreconcilably. To shake himself out of the safety of the fantasy world of the Shire and the Hobbits which he had created he threw in the indifference and malice of the real world he saw around him. That meant the Big People had to appear. Bree was a mix of hobbits and men because the chapter was a mix in Tolkien's mind of the children's story and the adults' story. Hobbits were not meant to live in such a world, at least not when Tolkien first began to write LotR, but the change in direction of the book forced the change for them. In 'Concerning Hobbits' Tolkien tells us that '...they were, as a rule, shy of the Big Folk'. I do not believe that Tolkien had conceived of Bree when he first set pen to paper. I would love to go on at length but I need to make another 499 posts to get to Elf-lord, so I will leave that particular rant there.... |
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08-13-2004, 09:52 PM | #12 |
Long lost mooter
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Nice first post! Welcome to Entmoot, Sharkey.
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08-14-2004, 02:39 AM | #13 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Hi Sharkey, welcome! I agree on what you say, LotR was first meant to become a sequel to The Hobbit, but during the (looong) process of writing the more serious stuff from the old legendarium forced itself into the story.
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01-28-2005, 11:48 PM | #14 |
Elven Warrior
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could it make Frodo phisically fall from the table...?
I don't think so; the ring just took advantage of that particular situation. BUT had Frodo not fallen, the ring would have taken advantage of another situation on that same night because the ring was set on slipping on Frodo's finger on that night. Frodo and the hobbitts are still quite careless at this point and the ring has an easy job to have it its way |
05-21-2006, 03:41 PM | #15 |
I'm Eru, and lord of Arda.
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On the subject of Aragon meeting the black riders, it says in one of the HoME books (either 6 or 7) that it was something left over from when he was a hobbit and had his feet burnt or something.
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