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02-02-2009, 01:42 AM | #1 | |
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Emblem of Minas Morgul
As seen by Samwise Gamgee, at the beginning of Book VI of LOTR, the livery of Minas Morgul was:
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So - rather than simply discard the old symbols, they (the new management = the Nazgul) might possibly have just modified them.
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02-02-2009, 02:10 PM | #2 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
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02-02-2009, 02:30 PM | #3 | |
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Quote:
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02-02-2009, 07:52 PM | #4 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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But what was the question, Val?
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02-02-2009, 09:23 PM | #5 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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Oh - this wasn't really a question thread - just an observation thread.
Also - I didn't mean to imply that the Nazgul or their associates changed the name - or that they called it "Minas Morgul" themselves (maybe we'd solve that with a little digging, but I'm not inclined right now). But there WAS most definitely a changeover in the management of the place!
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02-03-2009, 03:02 AM | #6 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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And there were HUGE renovations that the lax Gondorian government never attempted in two thousand years: new Gate (exquisitely shaped like a grinning mouth), new revolving upper tier of the Tower (wow- a marvel) with a spectacular view on the white meadows of the Morgul Vale and surrounding mountains. Perhaps the nazgul kept a restaurant there.
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02-04-2009, 01:20 AM | #7 | |
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The idea of riding up a glass elevator inside the Tower... like in a Hyatt... |
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02-03-2009, 06:52 AM | #8 | |
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So you wouldn't expect the mangled moon symbol of Minas Morgul to be an original invention of the Nazgûl inspired by some lunar affinity, but an adoption of something already present in former Minas Ithil yet which became twisted to due to decaying and dark nature of Mordor=) So is there a date for when Minas Ithil ceased being referred to as M. Ithil and instead Minas Morgul?
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02-04-2009, 01:10 AM | #9 | ||
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02-06-2009, 12:46 AM | #10 |
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Did they print up new notepaper, or just cross out the old name and write in the new one?
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02-06-2009, 03:43 PM | #11 |
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I suspect that "Minas Morgul" was applied from both sides. "Tower of Sorcery" would be applicable to each.
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02-06-2009, 05:41 PM | #12 |
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Seems to me it's a name given to it by Gondor and/or the Elves. The fact that they still used the moon as their symbol indicates that WiKi and his gang may well have continued to call it the Tower of the Moon.
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02-06-2009, 06:29 PM | #13 |
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True. Maybe, just maybe the Witch-King and the rest of Minas Morgul, being so corrupted by darkness and encapsulated in its shady haziness actually believed that the symbol they were using was the same symbol of the Tower of the Moon, a moon. Perhaps they were unable to see that it too had become mangled and twisted by their own evil nature. A psychological demented state
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02-06-2009, 07:02 PM | #14 | |
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02-06-2009, 07:16 PM | #15 | |
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Quote:
And we don't really know if they knew they were mangling the moon's face, or if it's sort of happened, beneath the radar of their darkened minds.
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02-07-2009, 12:01 PM | #16 | |
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Quote:
I guess the sigil of the disfigured moon was very artistic, transforming the silly plain face of the full moon into something frightening. Last edited by Gordis : 02-07-2009 at 02:03 PM. Reason: spelling... |
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02-07-2009, 10:11 PM | #17 |
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Maybe, but the orc Snaga specifically says "I fought for the Tower against the Morgul-rats", so the name was at least in use among the orcs.
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02-09-2009, 03:10 PM | #18 |
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I'm not sure Sauron overestimated his Nazgul (though he probably did somewhat) as much as he underestimated his enemies. It had been long since anyone among men outside of Gondor had proved fearless against Nazgul. How could Sauron know at the time that a pure strain of Numenor remained in the north and that the rightful heir to the kingdoms not only lived but had the courage to face down not just one Nazgul but five at once?
Surely he expected the Men they would have to face would be more like Butterbur or even Bill Ferny. If there was no Aragorn, the Nazgul would have succeeded. So were they unsuited for the mission? Or merely unsuited to face the unexpected fearless enemy, the heir of Elendil?
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02-09-2009, 04:01 PM | #19 | |||
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Quote:
We can also forgive Sauron for implementing a strategy which was not entirely unreasonable: Going in fast, by stealth and snatching the ring before it ever reached Rivendell and before his enemies understand what is going on. But the tactics he chooses for this strategy aren't compatible with the manpower he sends, the Nazgûl. They seem incapable of reigning in the chill darkness they eminate when it's not needed, and thus simply cannot produce the fast stealthy approach that Sauron expects. **EDIT** Didn't see the newest posts! Quote:
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Concerning their mental health: no I'm not joking. The Witch-King here shows evidence that he had forgotten and had a confused understanding of the terrain ahead and the lay of the people, towns and land. When he is given prime information by the Dunlending his mind is refreshed. This is not a direct evidence that the Nazgûl have severely inhibited minds. But as I wrote in a previous post, it is likely that the Nazgûl being slaves of Sauron, being physically and psychologically scarred, suffer from not only a heroine-aliken addiction to darkness but also several other inhibitions like memory loss. Remember, they aren't human any longer. It was a long time since they were and it seems absurd that it has not affected their minds. It's a speculation, true, but it doesn't make it less likely. I agree whole-heartedly with this. It raises a good point about the task of the Nazgûl and what they were meant to accomplish: Retrieving the ring at any cost. If we consider the Hashashin of the times during the Caliphates, whom were highly-trained assassins meant to locate and kill (or even kidnap and retrieve) targets. They were obliged to do their best, they obliged to finish their mission and if neccessary, die trying.
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"Well, thief! I smell you and I feel your air. I hear your breath. Come along! Help yourself again, there is plenty and to spare." Last edited by Coffeehouse : 02-09-2009 at 04:19 PM. |
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02-09-2009, 04:17 PM | #20 |
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The Nazgul were sent because they were Sauron's only servants with any remote possibility of successfully completing the task. Sure, maybe a group of Black Numenoreans or even some Orcs may have been better suited to recovering the Ring, but they would have been completely unsuitable for returning the Ring to Sauron. Only the Nazgul would have given the Ring back. Sauron didn't make a poor choice by sending the Nazgul. It was the only choice he had.
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